Can somebody choose to fail / critical fail a save? In pathfinder first edition it explicitly stated that you could do this but I can't find any rule in pf2. An I just missing where it says that or is their rule, and if there isn't does that mean you can't do it or is it assumed that you can and they just forgot to write it.
Thanks in advanced!
I also do not see anything about specifically choosing to fail a save, much less any other check.
For my part I would allow a player to automatically fail a save depending on the circumstances. Reflex saves I would generally allow to be "thrown". Will saves are more about the circumstances but would also allow them to be failed purposefully.
The rub for me would be Fortitude saves. In my mind, fortitude is not something that you consciously control like the other two save types. So I would likely not allow you to automatically fail a Fortitude save against say a poison or disease.
Was there any specific circumstance you were wondering about?
The fact that some spells specify willing target imply that you can fail a save. If you are unwilling then the spell fails, so there must be some way to waive that resistance/immunity.
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@ Themetricsystem; I wasn't intending to say that my proposal was anything less than a houserule. It just makes sense to me to allow some saves to be purposefully flubbed by the player, especially reflex and some will saves. After all, if a sexy succubus tried to beckon you to her bedside there's nothing saying you "have" to try to fight that temptation.
I had the same question: after some research all I could find was a brief phrase on CR pp.444 "Nearly all checks allow you to add an ability modifier to the roll. An ability modifier represents your raw capabilities and is derived from an ability score, as described on page 20. Exactly which ability modifier you use is determined by what you’re trying to accomplish. Usually a sword swing applies your Strength modifier, whereas remembering the name of the earl’s cousin uses your Intelligence modifier."
If most checks "allow you to add an ability modifier" you may be able to not choose to not use that ability and assume the ability score of 0 (-5 modifier) to that check. I found nothing that implies you can ever ignore proficiency or training. Or just choose to fail.
I swear I found a passage a couple weeks ago that indicated that no, you can't fail voluntarily.
Best I can find now is passages like Truth Potion that specifically allow for voluntary failure.
Most logical approach - yes for reflex and will saves. But no for fortitude saves.
You can choose stand perfectly still, not evading damage at all, and to let you mental guard off. But your body still will tries to fight negative effect on it's own, no matter how you feel about it.
My only issue with voluntary failure would be that it eliminates the chance of a critical failure. I'd probably allow someone to consider themselves helpless to an effect which would give them the same penalties as being unconscious (-4 status penalty to AC, Perception, Reflex saves) and flat-footed (-2 circumstance penalty to AC).
Voluntary failure of Reflex saves seems like a definitely reasonable thing to allow at least something like the above, but Will saves feel a bit more complicated. Choosing to believe in something like an illusion would be a bit weird, while other effects like being controlled might trigger some involuntary defenses within the target's mind. Maybe for a creature with a strong control over their Will saves already (master+)?
Fortitude voluntary failure also feels fairly wrong in general.
My only issue with voluntary failure would be that it eliminates the chance of a critical failure. I'd probably allow someone to consider themselves helpless to an effect which would give them the same penalties as being unconscious (-4 status penalty to AC, Perception, Reflex saves) and flat-footed (-2 circumstance penalty to AC).
Voluntary failure of Reflex saves seems like a definitely reasonable thing to allow at least something like the above, but Will saves feel a bit more complicated. Choosing to believe in something like an illusion would be a bit weird, while other effects like being controlled might trigger some involuntary defenses within the target's mind. Maybe for a creature with a strong control over their Will saves already (master+)?
Fortitude voluntary failure also feels fairly wrong in general.
You've never been in a position where you REALLY want to believe something that you think is false?
Manager: "Yeah, we can probably get you that raise. I'll call you back on monday."
Me: "Oh boy, he said I can probably get a raise. Happy feelings."
My only issue with voluntary failure would be that it eliminates the chance of a critical failure. I'd probably allow someone to consider themselves helpless to an effect which would give them the same penalties as being unconscious (-4 status penalty to AC, Perception, Reflex saves) and flat-footed (-2 circumstance penalty to AC).
Voluntary failure of Reflex saves seems like a definitely reasonable thing to allow at least something like the above, but Will saves feel a bit more complicated. Choosing to believe in something like an illusion would be a bit weird, while other effects like being controlled might trigger some involuntary defenses within the target's mind. Maybe for a creature with a strong control over their Will saves already (master+)?
Fortitude voluntary failure also feels fairly wrong in general.
You've never been in a position where you REALLY want to believe something that you think is false?
Manager: "Yeah, we can probably get you that raise. I'll call you back on monday."
Me: "Oh boy, he said I can probably get a raise. Happy feelings."
I think that all flows into the different attitudes someone can have towards someone else and how that effects the Will DC they're trying to beat with Deception or Diplomacy. I wouldn't say you voluntarily failed but rather that you were more susceptible because it played into your desires or because the manager was friendly/helpful towards you previously.
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Page 448 of the CRB describes what a saving throw is.
However, on page 457, there is more:
When you’re first exposed to the affliction, you must attempt a saving throw against it. This first attempt to stave off the affliction is called the initial save. An affliction usually requires a Fortitude save, but the exact save and its DC are listed after the name and type of affliction. Spells that can poison you typically use the caster’s spell DC.
emphasis mine
So it looks like certain saving throws can't be voluntarily failed.
Afflictions are usually diseases, poisons, curses, and radiation.
Under Spells, CRB page 305, it talks about spell saving throws. It states if the spell requires a saving throw and how to handle it.
So if a the spell description requires the target to make a savings throw, I don't think it can be voluntarily failed.