1: Definitely not a halcyon spell, just a primal or arcane spell. Additionally cantrips are at will and auto heightened by definition.
2: Halcyon spells are prepared or cast just like other spells granted by your class, so what class you're using as your base makes a big difference to the answer of your question here. Druids are prepared casters so they could take Halcyon Spellcasting Adept at 14 and learn Blink. If they later took Halcyon Spellcasting Sage at 18 they'd get a 6th level halcyon slot that they could put Blink (6) in without having to learn it separately. (or either of their other 6th level halcyon spells, or heightened versions of any of their other lower halcyon spells.)
3: Most of the time you'd want to choose your tradition for the higher numbers but I can imagine times where you want to disguise your capabilities or are facing a monster that has benefits against say arcane casters or a trap with similar mechanics.
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2: Halcyon spells are prepared or cast just like other spells granted by your class, so what class you're using as your base makes a big difference to the answer of your question here. Druids are prepared casters so they could take Halcyon Spellcasting Adept at 14 and learn Blink. If they later took Halcyon Spellcasting Sage at 18 they'd get a 6th level halcyon slot that they could put Blink (6) in without having to learn it separately. (or either of their other 6th level halcyon spells, or heightened versions of any of their other lower halcyon spells.)The text that's confusing me is on page 105, under Halcyon Speaker Dedication: "You can use your halcyon spell slots to spontaneously cast your halcyon spells." In other words, it sounds like eighteenth level druids with Halcyon Spellcasting Sage have:
- three 7th level druid spell slots, which work exactly as normal druid spell slots except that they can prepare halcyon spells in them (presumably including heightened versions of lower-level halcyon spells they know)
- one 7th level halcyon spell slot, which they can use to cast halcyon spells spontaneously (and can't prepare halcyon spells in--I think)Am I reading that right?
So then the question is whether the spontaneous casting with the halcyon spell slot is limited like the sorcerer's to spells the druid knows specifically at that level.
You are kinda right and kinda wrong. The ability is a bit awkward and takes some time to 'grog', but once you get you'll find its actually a pretty flexible system.
So, The Halcyon caster feat chain grants you a couple of things:
1) A handful of spontaneous spell slots.
2) Knowledge of a handful of spells from a different tradition.
3) The ability to prepare spells from a different tradition.
The text doesn't do a great job of unpacking what this all means, but, basically:
(*) The feat grant you two separate pools of spell slots, which do not mix, and cannot be used interchangeably. Prepared still acts like prepared and spontaneous like spontaneous.
(*) You learn the Halcyon spells like you would any other spell. Including how they pertain to prepared/spontaneous casting type.
(*) Spontaneous casters (Don't think about sorcerers right now) need to learn several instances of the same spell, at different levels, if they want to cast that spell at that level.
(*) Prepared casters need only learn a spell at its lowest level, then have the option to prepare it at any level they can cast.
(*) Halcyon Spells work the same way. The only consideration is that you have very limited Spontaneous spell slots and very limited Halcyon spells known.
(*) If a Druid takes Heal as a 1st level Halcyon spell, they can prepare heal in any of their normal Druid spell slots. They can prepare this as they see fit, like any prepared spell.
(*) If the same Druid would like to spontaneous cast Heal, they can only do some from their 1st level Halcyon slots.
(*) If the Druid wants to Spontaneous cast Heal at a higher level, they will have learn it again (using one of those limited Halcyon spells known) at that higher level, to do so.
So a Druid wanting to drop spontaneous heals might have a Halcyon spell list like:
1st: Heal, Blah
2nd: Blah, Blah
3rd: Blah, Blah
4th: Heal, Blah
5th: Blah, Blah
6th: Blah, Blah
7th: Heal
I've been going through and trying to figure this out myself, and there's a few things to add.
> Each time you cast a halcyon spell, decide whether it is an arcane or primal spell. You can’t heighten a halcyon spell beyond your maximum spell level of halcyon spell, even if you have higher-level spell slots, and you can’t select a halcyon spell as a signature spell.
So while our Druid could go nuts with Heal, a Wizard would have to unlock Halcyon spells of fourth level before he could cast a fourth level Heal.
That said, the Wizard would still be using Intelligence and their Arcane proficiency for casting any primal halcyon spells, correct?
That said, the Wizard would still be using Intelligence and their Arcane proficiency for casting any primal halcyon spells, correct?
Correct. In other words you will really only use your proficiency in your secondary tradition when you cast the cantrip you get with Magaambiya Attendant (assuming you choose a cantrip of that tradition). Otherwise, you will probably use your primary tradition for all your halcyon spells.
That said, the Wizard would still be using Intelligence and their Arcane proficiency for casting any primal halcyon spells, correct?Correct. In other words you will really only use your proficiency in your secondary tradition when you cast the cantrip you get with Magaambiya Attendant (assuming you choose a cantrip of that tradition). Otherwise, you will probably use your primary tradition for all your halcyon spells.
I don't see that there is anything in the Halcyon Speaker that overrides the Magaamblyan Attendant Dedication Feat. Which says which casting skill and stat you use for Halcyon spells cast out of Halcyon slots...
Your own primary slots seem clear. Not so much the Halcyon slots.| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t have any design team authority here, but my intent when writing “choose each time whether it’s an arcane or primal spell” was to reinforce the theme of Magaambyans blending magical traditions, and to give halcyon casters some flexibility in the event of e.g. casting a spell on something that gets bonuses against arcane magic but not primal magic.
I figure in most cases people are casting halcyon spells as whatever tradition they have the highest proficiency in!
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That said, the Wizard would still be using Intelligence and their Arcane proficiency for casting any primal halcyon spells, correct?Correct. In other words you will really only use your proficiency in your secondary tradition when you cast the cantrip you get with Magaambiya Attendant (assuming you choose a cantrip of that tradition). Otherwise, you will probably use your primary tradition for all your halcyon spells.I don't see that there is anything in the Halcyon Speaker that overrides the Magaamblyan Attendant Dedication Feat. Which says which casting skill and stat you use for Halcyon spells cast out of Halcyon slots...
Your own primary slots seem clear. Not so much the Halcyon slots.
You need to read Magaambyan Attendant more carefully. It doesn't actually give you anything "halcyon" yet.
All it does is give you a cantrip, and proficiency in the tradition of that cantrip if you didn't already have it, with a particular ability score. (That makes it interestingly different from innate cantrips by the way.)
Then later when you get Halcyon Speaker, you can cast in two traditions but it doesn't give you training in either of them. Which wouldn't be a problem for say, a wizard or druid because they're already trained. But the archetype is open to any class, so other classes would need to be trained in either primal or arcane spells or they're going to be really lame casters. Luckily, Magaambyan Attendant made you trained in one of those traditions.
That said, the Wizard would still be using Intelligence and their Arcane proficiency for casting any primal halcyon spells, correct?Correct. In other words you will really only use your proficiency in your secondary tradition when you cast the cantrip you get with Magaambiya Attendant (assuming you choose a cantrip of that tradition). Otherwise, you will probably use your primary tradition for all your halcyon spells.I don't see that there is anything in the Halcyon Speaker that overrides the Magaamblyan Attendant Dedication Feat. Which says which casting skill and stat you use for Halcyon spells cast out of Halcyon slots...
Your own primary slots seem clear. Not so much the Halcyon slots.You need to read Magaambyan Attendant more carefully. It doesn't actually give you anything "halcyon" yet.
All it does is give you a cantrip, and proficiency in the tradition of that cantrip if you didn't already have it, with a particular ability score. (That makes it interestingly different from innate cantrips by the way.)
Then later when you get Halcyon Speaker, you can cast in two traditions but it doesn't give you training in either of them. Which wouldn't be a problem for say, a wizard or druid because they're already trained. But the archetype is open to any class, so other classes would need to be trained in either primal or arcane spells or they're going to be really lame casters. Luckily, Magaambyan Attendant made you trained in one of those traditions.
I don't see that distinction. Yes "Halcyon" is not mentioned in the Magaambyan Attendant Dedication Feat, but it is mentioned in the general Magaambyan Attendant text. It can be quite subjective with multiple paragraphs, successive sentences, and even within a sentence to work out the exact correspondence between entities.
I am happy to respect and go with Andrew Mullen's intention.
I see that there is enough flexibility in the wording of in the Magaambyan Attendant Dedication Feat
If you weren’t already, you become trained in that tradition’s spell DCs and spell attack rolls to just use your current casting ability.
I've been trying to wrap my head around these archetypes and their spells too.
I'm hopping into a game in which the GM is allowing the Free Archetype rule from the GameMastery Guide.
I'm going to be playing a 10th-level elven sorcerer who is going to be using her normal class feats on Wizard Dedication and its spellcasting feats (along with the Arcane Evolution sorcerer feat). My Free Archetype is going to be Magaambyan Attendant Dedication, Halcyon Speaker, and Halcyon Speaker spells feat follow ups.
Now, one of the things that is unclear to me is what kind of spells and spell slots I end up with. Is it...
...sorcerer spell slots, wizard spell slots, and halcyon spell slots?
...or is it sorcerer spell slots, extra sorcerer spell slots from Halcyon Speaker, and wizard spell slots?
Also, the rules for halcyon spells says "If you have more than one arcane or primal spellcasting class, you add halcyon spells to all such classes."
Does this mean that any halcyon spells I add to my repertoire also get added to my spellbook? And if not, does Arcane Evolution make it so they get added to my spellbook anyways?
If Halcyon Spells are like their own separate class of spells, but with similar mechanics to my base class (spontaneous in the case of the sorcerer), what is the meaning of the above quote about them getting added to all such classes? Can my halcyon spells be cast as sorcerer spells, wizard spells, AND halycon spells?
I'm really rather confused.
The spells get added to your spell list and spell book/familiar (prepared), or to your repertoire (spontaneous). If you have more than one spell casting class you add them to both classes, not just your primary.
So lets use a level 8 wizard for an example. They took Magamabaaya Attendant dedication and then Halcyon speaker dedication, but no other feats. They have 5 cantrip slots and 3 slots per spell level from 1-4 from their Wizard class levels.
From their Attendant dedication they gained a cantrip in their spellbook from the Arcane or Primal list. They can prepare this cantrip in their cantrip slots.
From the Halcyon Speaker dedication they gain access (note access only, must learn a spell for some reason, I think this is an error) to two more cantrips (arcane or primal list) and two common 1st level spells (arcane or primal aka halcyon). They also gain another 1st level spontaneous spell slot that is only available for the two common 1st level spells they gain access to. Lets say the wizard chose Heal and Summon Fey.
The wizard can spontaneously cast Heal at 1st level or Summon Fey from the Halcyon slot. They can additionally prepare heal in their normal wizard spell slots since they're in the spellbook. And they can heighten this Heal to 4th level.
I've got a wizard MC'd into Magaambyan Attendant and then Halcyon Speaker. They're level 10 now, and have taken Halcyon Spellcasting Initiate. My rulings on the how this works are:
They have one primal cantrip from Magaambyan Attendant, which they must cast using Wisdom and their Primal spellcasting proficiency (they chose Guidance, so these issues are moot).
Halycon Speaker gives them two halycon cantrips. They have six halycon spells in total: two each of 1st, 2nd and 3rd. They can cast these cantrips and spells using their arcane or primal proficiency; they obviously normally use their arcane proficiency!
They can cast their halycon spells in their wizard spellslots, but can't heighten them above level 3, because this is their highest level halycon spellslot right now. They have three spontaneous spell slots for their halycon spells, one each of 1st, 2nd and 3rd level. They don't have signature spells, and so they can only cast Heal as a 1st level spontaneous spell but they could prepare it as a 3rd level wizard spell.
They can use wands and staves with the halycon spells they've selected, but not with any other primal spells.
I think this is all mostly correct - I did debate with the player about whether he could use *any* primal wand/staff, but we agreed to restrict it to help with party balance (especially as he's also a Cascade Bearer, and could end up treading on the toes of the Angelic Sorcerer and MC Bard in the party).
I think I might be even more confused now. Seems like everyone is giving slightly different answers.
I think I might be even more confused now. Seems like everyone is giving slightly different answers.
Apologies, I was a bit sleepy when I wrote that. I forgot about the heightening past your highest Halcyon slot (which is right there in the description of halcyon spells), and the fact that the cantrip from the attendant dedication is an innate spell.
... and the fact that the cantrip from the attendant dedication is an innate spell.
Where does it say it's an innate spell?
I think I might be even more confused now. Seems like everyone is giving slightly different answers.
That is the secret of PF2. So many things can be interpreted different ways.
... and the fact that the cantrip from the attendant dedication is an innate spell.Where does it say it's an innate spell?
It's a functional definition from the dedication feat's description. Innate spells are on pg 303 of CRB, which states that "the ability that gives you an innate spell tells you how often you can cast it ... and its magical tradition. Innate cantrips are cast at will and automatically heighten as normal for cantrips unless otherwise specified. You're always trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for innate spells even if you aren't otherwise trained." Compare that to the dedication feat and everything is in line. Except for oddly the bit in innate spells which specify that if you have expert or better proficiency in spell attacks innate spells become expert or better as appropriate.
The fact that the dedication doesn't require you to already be a spell casting class means that this cantrip cannot be keyed to your spellcasting classes slots.