It isn't immune to the damage, it just takes the normal amount instead of double.
It isn't immune to the speed penalty because of the third sentence in the first bit you quoted (since Ray of Frost has the attack trait---not that anything without the attack trait ought to be scoring critical hits...).
So if it's only the double damage that's alleviated by immunity to critical hits, wouldn't that mean that Deadly, Fatal, & a pick's Critical Specialization still apply?
Seems so, though that doesn't feel right adding bonus damage on a crit to creatures with no vulnerability to crits.
So if it's only the double damage that's alleviated by immunity to critical hits, wouldn't that mean that Deadly, Fatal, & a pick's Critical Specialization still apply?
Seems so, though that doesn't feel right adding bonus damage on a crit to creatures with no vulnerability to crits.
It means that, yup. If it weirds you out too much, bring it up in the errata thread. I could certainly see them issuing errata about deadly and fatal for this case.
When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
I think Deadly/Fatal/etc are still cancelled. The first sentence is talking about 'Strikes or other attacks that deal damage'. The second sentence is talking about 'other actions', ie. actions that aren't strikes/damage dealing.
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I think Deadly/Fatal/etc are still cancelled. The first sentence is talking about 'Strikes or other attacks that deal damage'. The second sentence is talking about 'other actions', ie. actions that aren't strikes/damage dealing.I agree with this. It is clear that the second part is referring to different actions that have attack traits and specifically lists non-damaging actions as part of the example, grapple and shove. Both can be done by themselves and don't directly cause damage.
The first sentence is talking about 'Strikes or other attacks that deal damage'. The second sentence is talking about 'other actions', ie. actions that aren't strikes/damage dealing.
Yeah, but the ability tells you what's negated: Double damage. Things that aren't double damage don't get negated. Whether or not it's a strike doesn't matter.
I think Deadly/Fatal/etc are still cancelled. The first sentence is talking about 'Strikes or other attacks that deal damage'. The second sentence is talking about 'other actions', ie. actions that aren't strikes/damage dealing.
When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
The first sentence is "Immunity to critical hits works a little differently." You're referring to the second and third sentences. The third sentence is not relevant to this discussion, as Ray of Frost deals damage. So the only thing that applies is:
When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage.
Nothing about that negates the penalty to Speed.
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
*cough*
*cough*Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
*cough*
Note: I don't really know which way I'm leaning on this, but the second half of that line definitely leaves room for interpretation.
*cough*Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait
It is a combined phrase, it is not just other critical success effects.
Critical Success effects of other actions....
It doesn't say anything regarding weapon traits for instance.
FWIW, I did not see it as "of" I read "or"
(And that particular typo is quite common, too).
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I guess that my interpretation is more from a card game angle in that if you can't perform part of a sequence you can't complete any of it because it has effectively been disrupted. If you can't double the damage then you can't do anything else.
The deadly trait references applying the double damage first then adding its damage, but if you can't double the damage you can't apply that damage.
The second part in my opinion seems to support that, especially since it use the "of other actions" which seems to indicate actions that work as attacks, but aren't.
I wish they had done a better break down like they did with nonlethal damage. That section of immunity is pretty clear and better written.
They should have made critical hit a trait that is triggered and then assigned it to everything that can be used as part of a critical hit. Then just said they are immune to the critical hit trait.
Considering how few monsters have critical hit immunity in this edition making them completely immune to all critical effects isn't a big impact. The gelatinous cube my party fought was still taken out in three rounds at 3rd level.
I guess that my interpretation is more from a card game angle in that if you can't perform part of a sequence you can't complete any of it because it has effectively been disrupted. If you can't double the damage then you can't do anything else.
That's not a universal rule. Gloomhaven a "miss" (actually its called null) still inflicts status effects, just no damage.
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I guess that my interpretation is more from a card game angle in that if you can't perform part of a sequence you can't complete any of it because it has effectively been disrupted. If you can't double the damage then you can't do anything else.
I mean, if that was the goal why not just say that? It seems weird to specify double damage specifically as being negated if the goal was to negate the entire critical success effect.
All you'd have to say is something to the effect that when crit by a damaging attack the creature treats it as a success instead.
It seems like the only reason to use the language they did is specifically so that crit effects that don't involve double damage still work.
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In January 2023 this has officially been confirmed by CRB Clarification, see https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq> Pathfinder Core Rulebook Clarifications (4th Printing):
Page 451 (Clarification): How do extra critical effects work on a creature immune to critical hits?
Immunity to critical hits reads “When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage.” This means what it says: The attack deals normal damage instead of double damage. Other effects specific to a critical hit still occur, such as critical specialization effects and extra damage dice from traits like deadly and fatal. You also still have the option to use abilities that trigger on critical hits, like the vorpal rune’s reaction (though many creatures immune to crits also don’t need heads to live, lucky devils). Your GM can still say no to extremely strange consequences of this rule on a case-by-case basis.
[italics added]
PS: Please forgive me the thread necromancy, but since it was still one of the top results when searching for Immunity against Crit vs. Critical Effects, I thought it was useful to have the answer finally here, as well.
PPS: Potentially interesting follow-up discussion: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43rot?Critical-Hits-and-Critical-Immune-Clarif ication