I'm currently working on a Fighter who's going to be using a longbow and a longsword, focusing on both so that they can reliably perform with either of them at a moment's notice (the specific weapons function similarly to the Shadowshot and Daybreak Super abilities from Destiny 2). However, I'm running into an issue with managing the number of feats necessary to pull it off...
At first I was looking at the Martial Mastery feat as a late-game solution, but I didn't notice until just now that it only applies to a specific weapon group. I can't use the Weapon Specialist advanced weapon training option for the same reason.
Is there a way, through either a fighter archetype or a feat, that would allow someone to apply feats like Weapon Focus to both a longsword and a longbow?
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Yeah, play a Slayer or Ilsuryan Ranger
...So nothing that would allow me to stick with Fighter, then?
Honestly, Weapon Focus et al are not really that good as feats to start with. You have MUCH better things to do with Fighter feats.
Fighter works better when you can use just one Weapon Training - look at the ]Hunter build here.
Diachronos wrote: ...So nothing that would allow me to stick with Fighter, then? I might be able to work out something with nothing but Fighter levels, but I tend to see all the problems in the world as solvable by multiclassing.
I can think of ways for a PC to be awesome in melee and at Range, but I never thought to commit to Longbow and Longsword.
So, I need to ask:
Do you really need to be a single class Fighter, and if you can budge at all, what do you think is most important about being a Fighter?
Do you really need to use a Longbow? How about a Long Composite Bow or an Orc Hornbow? How do you feel about Thrown Weapons? How do you feel about other stuff like guns and magic wands?
How do you feel about Longsword? Why Longsword? Why not Split Blade Sword, Estoc, Greatsword, or Bastard Sword? How do you feel about Natural Attacks? How do you feel about Feats that let you use your Bow in melee?
Diachronos wrote: Is there a way, through either a fighter archetype or a feat, that would allow someone to apply feats like Weapon Focus to both a longsword and a longbow? There is a Human Feat called Martial Versatility that lets apply you weapon-specific Feats such as Weapon Focus to all the Weapons in the same Fighter Weapon Group as the one you have that Feat (Weapon Focus) in. But Longbow and Longsword are too different from each other to play that particular trick.
Diachronos wrote: ...So nothing that would allow me to stick with Fighter, then? Depends on the goals and the campaign. In other words, it depends on your definition of "reliably perform".
It's possibly to have a Fighter be resonable proficient with both a bow and a melee weapon, but you won't be good at either. Other classes have an easier time, but Fighter heavily rewards specializing in a single weapon. You need to invest a lot into a melee weapon to be good with it after the early levels, most notably with Advanced Weapon Training. Meanwhile, if you invest enough into archery to do well at it, you easily get to the point where switching simply makes no sense, as you can shoot in melee just fine with Point Blank Master.
The first thing you need to work out for a switch hitter is the ability bonus to attack rolls - these desperately need to be the same. WHich normally means Weapon Finesse, and to use it with a longsword, you need an Effortless Lace.
However, there is one way to do almost exactly what you want, and that's the Sanguine Angel prestige class. At its 2nd level, you can select the Furious Huntress ability, which allows you to use strength instead of dexterity on bow attack rolls. I recomment dipping into Primal Hunter Barbarian at this point, because its Rage grants a +4 bonus to bow attack rolls, in addition to the +2 bonus to melee attack and to all damage rolls. The number of levels in Sanguine Angel is up to you, you lose out on the number of times you can take the AWT feat, but Queen’s Sword (+1 to Heavy Blades Weapon Training) and Kinslayer (Favored Enemy: Human, which works for both your weapons) are nice. If you take all 10 level, you even get permanent fly speed, See in Darkness, telepathy, and fire resist 30.
You won't be anywhere near a dedicated archer, not the least because you can't take some prime archery feats feats like Manyshot, but you have something worthwhile to do when you can't reach an enemy, which i presume is what you're aiming at.
Straight answer is probably no.
But one thing to note is that while you clearly can’t Versatile Design a sword into a bow or a bow into the heavy blades group, it’s not officially clear how Versatile Design interacts with weapon groups that include both melee and ranged weapons (e.g., Thrown, Monk). Maybe no weapons can be modified into those groups, maybe all weapons can be, or maybe Paizo has an official list of which groups are considered melee and which have been deemed ranged locked in their safe.
And I wouldn’t suggest this except trying to build longbow/long sword is a pretty sub optimal starting point, and it appears you are doing it for character reasons. And Martial Mastery doesn’t come online until 16th level. But, if you Versatile Designed both to count as monk weapons, Martial Mastery would work for you, assuming all your feats are selecting monk weapons at that time.
Lelomenia wrote: it’s not officially clear how Versatile Design interacts with weapon groups that include both melee and ranged weapons (e.g., Thrown, Monk). Nothing official, but there are 36 weapons in the monk weapon group (with unarmed strike), with 34 of those being classified as melee. That sure looks like a "melee weapon group" to me!
Meanwhile, while the thrown weapons group is significantly more evenly distributed (32 ranged weapons, 22 melee weapons), they're defined by the ability to make ranged attack rolls with them, which I'd say makes them a ranged weapon group.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Do you really need to be a single class Fighter, and if you can budge at all, what do you think is most important about being a Fighter? "Need to", no. But I have a long-standing bias against multiclassing due to how it was pretty much mandatory in 3.5 and how most builds seem to dip more than a tobacco-chewing redneck tied to a fishing line.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Do you really need to use a Longbow? How about a Long Composite Bow or an Orc Hornbow? How do you feel about Thrown Weapons? How do you feel about other stuff like guns and magic wands?
How do you feel about Longsword? Why Longsword? Why not Split Blade Sword, Estoc, Greatsword, or Bastard Sword? How do you feel about Natural Attacks? How do you feel about Feats that let you use your Bow in melee?
I picked Longbow and Longsword specifically because they fit the thematic design of the bow and sword used in the Shadowshot and Daybreak skills. None of those other weapons fit the design very well (maybe greatsword).
For clarification, I'm not looking to optimize to Powergamer/PFS levels. I just want to be able to invest in the standard power-boosting feats while still having plenty left over to invest in feats that are more interesting than powerful, like the Weapon Mastery feats.
With the sheer number of feats a fighter gets, feat expenditure shouldn't be a huge issue. I'm still sad that Paizo never made a proper master-of-arms fighter archetype, though, and have been tinkering with my own version for quite some time.
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Diachronos wrote: Is there a way, through either a fighter archetype or a feat, that would allow someone to apply feats like Weapon Focus to both a longsword and a longbow? Lelomenia wrote: it’s not officially clear how Versatile Design interacts with weapon groups that include both melee and ranged weapons (e.g., Thrown, Monk). Maybe no weapons can be modified into those groups, maybe all weapons can be, or maybe Paizo has an official list of which groups are considered melee and which have been deemed ranged locked in their safe. Versatile Design wrote: A melee weapon cannot be considered part of a weapon group for ranged weapons, and vice versa. It is hard to tell what "a weapon group for ranged weapons" means. If it means a group with ranged weapons in it, you can't use Verstile Design to make a Longsword into a Monk Weapon, because there are ranged weapons in the group. If it means a group intended just for Ranged Weapons, then you can. If Derklord's idea that you round off to the nearest group, then the Monk Group is "a weapon group for" melee weapons, which means you could make a longsword into a Monk Weapon, but not a Longbow.
Okay, here's something you could do: use Versatile Design so that you can modify your Longbow to be in the Thrown Weapon Group. Modify your Longsowrd so that it is also in the Monk Weapon Group. Then you put your weapon-specific feats on Shuriken which is both in the Thrown and Monk Weapon Groups. So then can use Martial Versatility to make your weapon specific Feats to apply to all the weapons in both the Monk and Thrown Weapon Groups: your special longbow and longsword. I'm sure that this is what most people would call a cheeseball tactic. And this solution is rather Feat-Intensive in and of itself. In a lot of cases, it might make more sense just take Weapon Focus twice. But it would make sense if you wanted to something else, like dip 2 levels into Monk Master of Many Styles and take Ascetic Style for Shuriken and Panther Style Feats. Then take Martial Versatility for Ascetic Style. Now you can use Panther Style Feats for your longsword and for your longbow, letting you get multiple free action attacks whenever you provoke an attack of opportunity by moving out of a threatened square, and now you can do that with either longbow or longsword. But you did say you don't want to multiclass, so that particular trick is out, I guess.
Derklord wrote: Sanguine Angel prestige class. That's a good Prestige Class.
Diachronos wrote: I just want to be able to invest in the standard power-boosting feats while still having plenty left over to invest in feats that are more interesting than powerful, like the Weapon Mastery feats. Two issues: a) Fighter has more specialization that just feets (hello Weapon Training), and b) just a few feats is not good enough to make a Fighter be actually good in melee, as the class lacks mobility. Plus the mentiend ability score bottleneck.
Diachronos wrote: I'm not looking to optimize to Powergamer/PFS levels. "PFS levels" is equal to "powergamer elvels"? I thought PFS was pretty easy?
What weapon mastery feats is it you're after and by when? It'll probably be possible to make an effective character without whatever weapon-specific feats it is you're after, using longsword and long bow, but it may require a very little lateral thinking.
Derklord wrote: Diachronos wrote: I'm not looking to optimize to Powergamer/PFS levels. "PFS levels" is equal to "powergamer elvels"? I thought PFS was pretty easy?
What some players do isn't depicting accurately what PFS requires. It's mix that can require good quality, but also can be friendly enough that there's a low base requirement.
And still opposing "Power gaming" and "RP" nowadays ? It's on a stormwind level. These are merely two sides of the same coin.
I'm liking Half Elves lately. They have 2 Alternate Racial Traits I like: Arcane Training and Ancestral Arms. Arane Training gives them a half-level in any 1 Arcane Class, so pick Arcanist, and you can use a Magic Wand with any Sorcerer or Wizard Spell, and that gives you a huge utility, especially since you want to be a single class Fighter. Take a look at the Swift Girding Spell. Normally, it takes minutes to put on heavy armor, so if a fight starts when you aren't ready--Wandering Monsters while you sleep--you don't have time to dress in your armor, and you'll be fighting in your underwear. A lot of the time, you need to take off your armor to use a skill or something, and you can't have that Armor Check Penalty, and then you have a combat right on the top of the cliff. It sure is nice when you can get into your Armor as a Standard Action. I regard Swift Girding as crucial. Also, there is the Spell Gravity Bow, which lets your arrows inflict damage as if they were a size bigger. That increased the Damage from a longbow from 1d8 to 2d6. That's a lot.
Ancestral Arms gives you an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and there are 2 I like: Orc Hornbow and Split Blade Sword.
Diachronos wrote: I picked Longbow and Longsword specifically because they fit the thematic design of the bow and sword used in the Shadowshot and Daybreak skills. None of those other weapons fit the design very well (maybe greatsword). I peeped Destiny 2, and I have to say I don't see that that longsword can't be a Split Blade Sword and not depart from the feel of the character.
And my opinion, the composite bow actually looks more like the Destiny 2 character's bow to me, and an Orc Hornbow is just a Composite Bow that does more damage.
Up to you, of course. I'm just saying.
Diachronos wrote: I have a long-standing bias against multiclassing I like dipping into Ranger 1-3 levels. I like Endurance. I like the level 2 Bonus Feat. I like the Good Reflex Save. I like the Freebooter Archetype's ability to give themselves and all their Allies +1 Attack and damage. And even 1 level in Ranger lets you use Wands with Ranger Spells on them. I like Gravity Bow and Lead Blades. Gravity Bow is also a Wizard Spell you can use in Wand-form just by being a Half Elf like I said, but Lead Blades is only a Ranger Spell. Lead Blades is like Gravity Bow, but for melee weapons. Your longsword would go from 1d8 to 2d6. Your Split Blade Sword would go from 2d6 to 3d6.
Another way to bump up your Reflex Save is with the Fighter's Reflexes Advanced Weapon Training Class Ability. That lets you apply your Weapon Training Bonus to your Reflex Saves. You can take an Advanced Weapon Training at level 9 and every 4 levels after, and you can take an Advanced Weapon Training as a Feat once every 4 levels starting at level 5.
Endurance lets you sleep in Medium Armor. I worry about sleeping in Armor a lot. Endurance and Iron Will are prerequisites to become a Living Monolith. With just 1 level in Living Monolith, you get the Toughness Feat: +1HP/level--nice. You can Enlarge Person as a Swift Action, increasing your ST by +2 and your Size by 1 step. This stacks with the Virtual Size Increases from Gravity Bow and Lead Blades, so you can buff your base damage for your longbow and longsword to 3d6 or your Orc Hornbow and Split Blade Sword to 4d6. Living Monolith also has the prerequisite of Iron Will, but you should consider taking Iron Will anyway since Fighters have poor Will Saves.
I like dipping in Inquisitor. I like the Good Will Saves. I like the utility of Spells. I like Fast Healing such as by the Inquisitor Judgement. With 3 levels in Inquisitor, you can take Teamwork Feats and use them as if all your Allies had those Feats. I really like Broken Wing Gambit, which gives you an Attack of Opportunity just for being Attacked. Take 5 levels in Inquisitor, and you get Bane.
As a Fighter, you can improve your Will Saves with an Advanced Weapon Training called Armed Bravery. And you can use Teamwork Feats like and Inquisitor can through another Advance Weapon Training called Fighter's Tactics.
So, I'm thinking about options I like that I think are good for you, but of course it is up to you to pick the options that will make your character the most fun.
Derklord wrote: It's possibly to have a Fighter be resonable proficient with both a bow and a melee weapon, but you won't be good at either. It is fair to say that a PC that isn't bad at anything isn't good at anything, either. On the other hand, it is also fair to say that characters with aggressive strengths also tend to have aggressive weaknesses.
I think it is possible for a PC to be good at a couple of things.
I think that it is possible that a PC that is merely competent at a lot of things can be an asset to the party, especially if it's a party of changing composition like a PFS party or some other campaign being run at a public venue like a gaming store. Another time it's good to be multitalented is when you have a GM who likes to take all your stuff away from you and force the archer to learn how to be a hero with his bow. You know, like in Shoot 'em Up , when the bad guy breaks all the gunslinger-hero's fingers.
It is likely that it would be best if the OP's PC be merely competent at shooting or slashing and actually good at the other.
Diachronos, I recommend that you talk with your fellow party members about this and find out about what the other PCs are doing and blend your character's strengths accordingly.
For instance, take Precise Shot. What is Precise Shot for? Precise Shot is for shooting into melee. Should you take Precise Shot? You answer that question by asking, "What should you do in melee?" If you are good with sword and board, shouldn't you be the one to drop the bow and join the melee? If so, then you should not take Precise Shot. If you are the one who shoots into melee, then should invest all that many Feats into wading into melees that you intend to shoot into?
Maybe you should take Precise Shot and be good at sword-and-board. I kind of like the idea some of the time. Like what do I do when I am in Melee against opponents with longer reach than mine? How about shooting them? Seems sensible to me.
Even my dedicated melee characters have Ranged Weapons. What do you do when your opponents Fly and you don't, or when you're on a ship on a river, and opponents are firing on you from the shore. A bow gives you something to do, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should invest in being an awesome archer.
Anyway, you have a lot to think about.
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Scott Wilhelm wrote: I think it is possible for a PC to be good at a couple of things. Being "good at a couple things" is on thing, being good at two completely different martial combat styles is another. I'm a proponent of hybridish characters, and of broadening out your character to avoid being useless in combat situations, but not having any actually good combat option doesn't help there.
On one hand, you need either a pretty large amount of feats or some feats and some other source(s) of bonuses for archery to be good, because the initial damage per shot is pretty low. On the other hand, when you have no ability to move and full attack, you need to invest quite a lot to make melee worth loosing that round it takes to close the gap. Now, you could opt for focussing mainly on a bow and switching to melee when the enemy is adjacent, avoiding two of a melee fighter's biggest problems at the same time, but the issue is that at that point, simply taking a single feat (Point Blank Master) is way cheaper and way more efficient.
Fighter has nothing that applies to both playstyles, meaning everything you invest into one playstyle is something you haven't invested in the other. One might think that the larger number of feats means you have plenty to spare, but that is not really the case - the class is designed so that you need to use a bunch of them to make it fully functional (an utterly stupid but sadly common design principle), and you need at least to for the weapon switch to work at all (Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw).
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