Creature Companions - Carrying Capacity and Bulk


Rules Questions


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There doesn't seem to be any mention on how to determine how much a companion can carry. Doesn't make sense to use the PC rules for encumbrance since they are of varying sizes, but a majority of them my have more than one set of legs that would give them an advantage there.

Please point me in the right direction if it is listed somewhere, otherwise, please provide guidance.

Thanks!

Laendra


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

How is having varying sizes and varying numbers of legs different from PCs?


This started with our conversation while I was working with companions.
When creating a Empathnid spider 8" in size can carry up to 10 bulk (5 unencumbered), since there is nothing that sets there Str below 10.

To me this just does not seem correct.

But I guess this goes along with ants can carry.

"According to different estimates, ants can carry 10 - 50 times their body weight!"

We are just asking in-case we are missing something somewhere.


HammerJack wrote:
How is having varying sizes and varying numbers of legs different from PCs?

Well, not only does it make sense that a Tiny creature cannot necessarily as much as a human, I am basing my question off of every other ruleset out there.

For instance, in Pathfinder...

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lvra?Mount-Carrying-Capacity#2


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A raxilite character (tiny, 2 legs) and an izalguun character (large, 4 legs) have got the same encumbrance rules in this ruleset. I didn't say that outcome is logical, but at least it's consistent.

I don't see why it's more illogical for the creature companions than the PCs.


Unless I missed something in the companion rules, I think the intent is that companions can't carry *any* meaningful bulk, irrespective of their size and strength. If they are rideable ( and thus saddleable ) this might change, but otherwise the intent is to have a partner, not a pack mule. Or at least, their ability to provide extra carrying capacity is at GM's Discretion Only.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Was there something to suggest that they couldn't carry weight like every other creature? I didn't see that restriction.


I haven't seen anything to suggest that they can't carry things.

They should be the same as every other thing with a stat block in this game. Strength score determines carrying capacity.


Metaphysician wrote:
Unless I missed something in the companion rules, I think the intent is that companions can't carry *any* meaningful bulk, irrespective of their size and strength. If they are rideable ( and thus saddleable ) this might change, but otherwise the intent is to have a partner, not a pack mule. Or at least, their ability to provide extra carrying capacity is at GM's Discretion Only.

There are mounted companion rules in there (pg 140 AA3). Specifically,

Bulk: You can mount your creature companion as long as
the total amount of bulk you’re carrying doesn’t exceed your
carrying capacity. If you have the encumbered condition (or
gain the overburdened condition) while mounted, your creature
companion gains the same condition while you are riding it.

That implies that they can carry meaningful bulk, since if I am carrying 15 bulk without encumbrance due to my strength, my (at least one size larger) companion can carry 15 + me (which I would have much more bulk than 15).

So to the point of the rest of you, even if my mount has the max strength of 20, and is one size larger than myself, the rules would say that it would only be able to carry 10 bulk before being encumbered, which is overriden by the mounted rules above, suggesting there are other (undefined) rules at play here. But, that is a level 20 companion with strength as the best stat. It is just as likely to have a 10 strength and 5 bulk (PC rules) limit while carrying a 10 or more bulk unencumbered PC and itself remaining unencumbered.

Also, if a companion has a saddle and a field collar that could already, in and of itself add up to 8 bulk to the companion BEFORE you got on.

TIA


Laendra Silverleaf wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
Unless I missed something in the companion rules, I think the intent is that companions can't carry *any* meaningful bulk, irrespective of their size and strength. If they are rideable ( and thus saddleable ) this might change, but otherwise the intent is to have a partner, not a pack mule. Or at least, their ability to provide extra carrying capacity is at GM's Discretion Only.

There are mounted companion rules in there (pg 140 AA3). Specifically,

Bulk: You can mount your creature companion as long as
the total amount of bulk you’re carrying doesn’t exceed your
carrying capacity. If you have the encumbered condition (or
gain the overburdened condition) while mounted, your creature
companion gains the same condition while you are riding it.

That implies that they can carry meaningful bulk, since if I am carrying 15 bulk without encumbrance due to my strength, my (at least one size larger) companion can carry 15 + me (which I would have much more bulk than 15).

So to the point of the rest of you, even if my mount has the max strength of 20, and is one size larger than myself, the rules would say that it would only be able to carry 10 bulk before being encumbered, which is overriden by the mounted rules above, suggesting there are other (undefined) rules at play here. But, that is a level 20 companion with strength as the best stat. It is just as likely to have a 10 strength and 5 bulk (PC rules) limit while carrying a 10 or more bulk unencumbered PC and itself remaining unencumbered.

Also, if a companion has a saddle and a field collar that could already, in and of itself add up to 8 bulk to the companion BEFORE you got on.

TIA

That's pretty much how I remember the rules being, and is precisely *why* I say the intent is "no, the companion is not supposed to carry meaningful bulk for you". Its ability to carry stuff, as a mount, is defined purely in terms of whether *you*, the rider, are encumbered. Its not connected to the mount's own strength in any way.

Yes, this is an abstraction clearly. However, I think its a worthwhile abstraction to prevent the issue of "players using rideable critters to transport incredibly large quantities of stuff by exploiting the Bulk abstraction as applied to PCs". The Bulk rules are intended to facilitate PCs carrying PC equipment in reasonable amounts with reasonable limits, without requiring pound-by-pound accounting. The tradeoff for this is that you are not allowed to convert 250 pounds of PC into 250 pounds of gear.


Metaphysician wrote:
Laendra Silverleaf wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
Unless I missed something in the companion rules, I think the intent is that companions can't carry *any* meaningful bulk, irrespective of their size and strength. If they are rideable ( and thus saddleable ) this might change, but otherwise the intent is to have a partner, not a pack mule. Or at least, their ability to provide extra carrying capacity is at GM's Discretion Only.

There are mounted companion rules in there (pg 140 AA3). Specifically,

Bulk: You can mount your creature companion as long as
the total amount of bulk you’re carrying doesn’t exceed your
carrying capacity. If you have the encumbered condition (or
gain the overburdened condition) while mounted, your creature
companion gains the same condition while you are riding it.

That implies that they can carry meaningful bulk, since if I am carrying 15 bulk without encumbrance due to my strength, my (at least one size larger) companion can carry 15 + me (which I would have much more bulk than 15).

So to the point of the rest of you, even if my mount has the max strength of 20, and is one size larger than myself, the rules would say that it would only be able to carry 10 bulk before being encumbered, which is overriden by the mounted rules above, suggesting there are other (undefined) rules at play here. But, that is a level 20 companion with strength as the best stat. It is just as likely to have a 10 strength and 5 bulk (PC rules) limit while carrying a 10 or more bulk unencumbered PC and itself remaining unencumbered.

Also, if a companion has a saddle and a field collar that could already, in and of itself add up to 8 bulk to the companion BEFORE you got on.

TIA

That's pretty much how I remember the rules being, and is precisely *why* I say the intent is "no, the companion is not supposed to carry meaningful bulk for you". Its ability to carry stuff, as a mount, is defined purely in terms of whether *you*, the rider, are encumbered. Its not...

I really wish they would just say that they can't carry anything other than players or like a saddle..


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

They certainly should say that if it was supposed to be the case. I don't believe it is.

Since there are no special rules about what creature companions can carry, aside from a rider, they would use standard rules for what a creature can carry, when not serving as a mount.

Those rules don't include any adjustments for size, or bonus weight because of legs, or an inability to carry things that aren't another creature.

If the question here is what the rules are, not what they should be (which is always a valid question for your group, but better suited to Advice or Homebrew forums than the Rules forum), I don't think there's as much ambiguity as there is in this thread.


Also I was wondering, could a companion possibly drag something with a rope.. like "cargo" (people)?
I am probably going to make a custom cargo wagon.


No disrespect, but since it is unclear (there are a lot of questions about companions), I would prefer an official answer (either a rule printed somewhere that I didn't know, or word from the devs), not just opinions.


You're not likely to get one.


Especially since the official intent is almost certainly that most dreadful of things: "At the GM's discretion". Which is to say, its not that you can't have a mount carry cargo. Its that the ability of your mount to carry cargo is *at the GM's discretion*. You are not forbidden from doing so, you are just limited to what the GM finds as reasonable.


Samarex wrote:

This started with our conversation while I was working with companions.

When creating a Empathnid spider 8" in size can carry up to 10 bulk (5 unencumbered), since there is nothing that sets there Str below 10.

To me this just does not seem correct.

But I guess this goes along with ants can carry.

"According to different estimates, ants can carry 10 - 50 times their body weight!"

We are just asking in-case we are missing something somewhere.

a large part of the reason ants can do that is the square cube rule: a human arm has to lift up a human arm in addition to lifting any weight

==5 thaums== one very short muscle

===========5 thaums======= one long muscle fiber

They both have the same pulling power but the bigger muscle has to pull against a lot more weight.

and then you need something to suppor that weight

and organs that let enough oxygen get to that muscle...

and pretty soon you'd even out the difference.

Wayfinders

So could you use a Shotalashu for this or as a companion to a Lashunta?

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