Wild shape druid -- any good? Anyone tried it?

[Gustav_V]

Dear all

Has anyone tried playing a druid with wild shape? If so, how did it work out?

I'd like to try one of these, but am a little concerned about whether it's worth the trouble. My last game was PF1, where I tried to make a Dark Tapestry oracle work for a shapeshifting melee build, and it really didn't. The whole thing wasn't designed right and the character didn't contribute much (admittedly in a very optimised party).

How does 2e wild shape manage in combat? Can you keep up with the 'official' martial types and the blaster casters? Wild shape means you won't be casting spells in combat, so it's hard to use magic to catch up, and out-of-combat buffs are a bit limited.

In particular, you can only get a max of 16 Str at creation as a druid - is this a major handicap?

Many thanks!

[NielsenE]

I've been playing a Storm+Wild order druid for my primary PFS character. I feel I've been too conservative in choosing when to wild-shape(or tempest surge) so I don't have as much experience as I'd like for answering your question, however when I have transformed I've been highly effective. Picking when I want to give up casting spells has been difficult, because I'm not building for out-of-combat spell utility.

The 16 strength is balanced by the +2 bonus to hit if using your own stats rather than the form stats, which means you're +1 over a pure martial, when your proficiencies are the same. (Martials advance faster than you, so you'll be bouncing between -1/+1, or 0/+2 at different points accounting for ability boosts, until the extreme high end when martials are hitting legendary)

Damage is a touch lower on average since you don't get to add your strength modifier, just the +1 with the basic unheightend animal form, but you typically have competitive damage dice and you have flexibility of damage types/reach as needed.

So typically in round 1, I'm casting blasting spells. Round 2 I'm picking if I need to shape change, or continue casting -- usually by round 2 we also know if we need a particular damage type or not so that delay hasn't been bad. Round 3 is when the wild-shape comes into its own when I use it. So it does feel a bit delayed/situational.

[HeHateMe]

What concerns me is the Armor Class in animal forms. Seems really low until 5th level. Is that an issue in actual play?

[Edge93]

I've been running a game which has a Dwarf Wild Druid, starting at 1st and now at 15th (using Playtest rules until 10th or 11th though). It's gone quite well, his accuracy for on-level forms always feels respectably high, and if it isn't as high as his own accuracy (usually because it's a lower level form) he can use his own with a +2 status bonus because that's a handy perk of wild shape, and a caster putting effort into Str with a +2 status bonus is an appreciable accuracy value.

Damage seems pretty good too, higher than his normal damage though maybe not quite on martial level, but good still. And some forms have pretty cool added abilities too.

That said, he used Wild Shape primarily for scouting in the first few levels because he only had pest form, but I think the full CRB made animal form come online earlier.

His AC is -maybe- occasionally a point or two lowered with certain forms at certain levels IIRC, but in practice it hasn't caused any serious issues and it isn't always even in the case. Again I think it was a matter of using slightly lower level forms (also forms scale AC somewhat with level even if they don't have a specific heighten, so that's great).

[Mellored]

HeHateMe wrote:

What concerns me is the Armor Class in animal forms. Seems really low until 5th level. Is that an issue in actual play?

Armor for monks/barbs is 17(+level+magic armor). Possibly a point or 2 lower if they can't afford the armor/dex yet. Then 19+ at 13. And 21+ at 19.

*Level and magic armor bonus works for all. So it's a wash.

Pest form is 15+level. Should not be used for combat.

So wild shape starts (16+) 1 point behind, but gives some THP. Might be on par if your party is still buying armor.
At level 6, you match, but still with THP.
At level 8, 1 point ahead, with with THP.
At level 13, you are 1 point behind.
At level 16, you are 1 point ahead (assuming monstrosity form)
At level 17, you are 1 point behind.

So yea. Details vary based on level, and which shifting feat you take, but it's the pretty much the same AC as a barbarian/monk/rogue. And about the same damage. You lack the combat feats (like strike + trip), but the forms can make up for it.

Multi-classing into druid would be good for lower levels, but won't keep up at high levels. Since you can't get the high level feats. At best you get elemental form at 20, which is 2 points behind.

[HeHateMe]

Good to know!

[Gustav_V]

Thanks, guys. Playing PF1, it came as a real surprise to me that you could pick a class which was just plain bad compared to others. PF2 seems rather more balanced, and it's reassuring to hear that you can play a druid without being left behind.

Out of interest, what's your rule about Handwrap of Mighty Blows with striking runes? Seems there's argument either way about whether that can increase your damage dice when polymorphed.

[Blave]

Gustav_V wrote:

Out of interest, what's your rule about Handwrap of Mighty Blows with striking runes? Seems there's argument either way about whether that can increase your damage dice when polymorphed.

The argument is still ongoing with no real conclusion so far. I hope the first rules update will shed some light on the matter.

[Vidmaster7]

I think their is still enough wiggle room in wild shape for their to be a shifter class and it be better at shifting without being OP.

In other words I think it is in that sweet spot where it is balanced when you consider then entire druid package.

[Mellored]

Gustav_V wrote:

Thanks, guys. Playing PF1, it came as a real surprise to me that you could pick a class which was just plain bad compared to others. PF2 seems rather more balanced, and it's reassuring to hear that you can play a druid without being left behind.

Balance is very good, except for the alchemist which is left behind.

Not as far behind as some PF1 classes could be. But still lags behind everyone else. Hopefully there will be some adjustments in the first errata.

Quote:

Out of interest, what's your rule about Handwrap of Mighty Blows with striking runes? Seems there's argument either way about whether that can increase your damage dice when polymorphed.

Rules are a bit iffy, but if we look at the math...

A level 20 monsterous form druid without handwraps will do 3d12+20 = 39.5
A level 20 animal barbarian 4d10+12+6 = 40

It's balanced without them.

[HeHateMe]

Mellored wrote:

Gustav_V wrote:

Thanks, guys. Playing PF1, it came as a real surprise to me that you could pick a class which was just plain bad compared to others. PF2 seems rather more balanced, and it's reassuring to hear that you can play a druid without being left behind.

Balance is very good, except for the alchemist which is left behind.

Not as far behind as some PF1 classes could be. But still lags behind everyone else. Hopefully there will be some adjustments in the first errata.

Quote:

Out of interest, what's your rule about Handwrap of Mighty Blows with striking runes? Seems there's argument either way about whether that can increase your damage dice when polymorphed.

Rules are a bit iffy, but if we look at the math...

A level 20 monsterous form druid without handwraps will do 3d12+20 = 39.5
A level 20 animal barbarian 4d10+12+6 = 40

It's balanced without them.

Just a small correction, the Animal Barb would be doing 4d12+12+6 damage, not 4d10. At 7th level Animal Barbs increase the die size of their unarmed attacks when raging.