Enlarge person, Reach, Reach weapons, and Lunge

[Celanian]

How does Enlarge Person interact with all the different Reach options?

I have a synthesis summoner with Reach (longspear) as one of my evolutions. My usual tactic is that I use a longspear to get free AoO as opponents rush me and then drop the spear to tear them apart with claws and bite when I can full attack.

Here is what I think happens:

1) Base situation I can attack with my claws and bite at 5' and the longspear at 10-15'

2) If I enlarge person, I double my reach. So I can attack with claws and bite at 5-10' and the longspear at 15-30'

If I gain the large evolution with reach (longspear):

3) I attack with claws & bite at 5-10' or spear at 15-30'

4) If I enlarge person, claws & bite at 5-20' or spear at 25-40'

If I gain the huge evolution or large with lunge and reach (longspear):

5) I attack with claws & bite at 5-15' or spear at 20-30'

6) If I enlarge person, claws & bite at 5-30' or spear at 35-60'.

If I gain the huge evolution with lunge and reach (longspear):

7) I attack with claws & bite at 5-20' or spear at 25-40'

8) If I enlarge person, claws & bite at 5-40' or spear at 45-80'

I'm basing all of this on enlarge person doubling all reach ranges and reach weapons doubling the basic reach of the synthesist. Am I reading the rules correctly?

Needless to say, I took Combat Reflexes as my 1st level feat...

[Claxon]

I can't find a specific Reach weapon evolution as you're describing, but I believe the reach evolution only applies to natural attacks, not manufactured weapons.

[Titania, the Summer Queen]

I'm assuming it's a home brue

[Celanian]

There is nothing in the APG that says the reach evolution is limited to natural attacks. It says to pick 'one attack'. Can you point out where it says that it's not applicable to manufactured weapons?

[Paulicus]

Aren't reach weapons only 10' by default? You mention 10-15' but I could be misunderstanding.

[Celanian]

The reach evolution for an eidolon adds 5' reach to 1 attack. Unlike reach weapons, natural reach isn't fixed so you can add the 10' range of the reach weapon from either your body or to where the natural reach extends.

[Berinor]

I tend to disagree with your interpretation about whether you can use the Reach evolution on manufactured weapons since they're not an inherent attack, but for the purposes of this discussion we'll ignore that.

Enlarge Person doesn't double your reach. A large(tall) creature has a reach of 10 feet. Your reach weapon uses the next 10 feet out instead. Your evolution then adds 5' to that. In general, your reach weapon will extend to the next <reach distance> after the first <reach distance> for a creature of your size and build. The evolution (if allowed on manufactured weapons) would allow you to extend that by an additional 5'.

[Celanian]

Hmm, I just got to my books. Enlarge Person doesn't double reach, but brings you up to the next size category.

Definition of reach weapon: Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away

So a reach weapon does double natural reach. I'm guessing that the reach evolution and lunge are considered natural reach.

So an eidolon with reach and lunge adds 10' to natural reach. Wielding a reach weapon doubles the final natural reach. So the maximum reach that can be utilized would be huge evolution (15' base reach). With enlarge person, that goes to gargantuan (20' base reach). With reach evolution and lunge, it's 30' base reach. Using a reach weapon doubles that to 60' final reach. Since a gargantuan creature is 4 squares, a 60' reach means he threatens 28 squares diameter.

If reach evolution is added at the end instead of doubling, then it would be 55' reach instead or 26 squares diameter.

That's a lot of AoO's that an opponent has to take to reach your party...

[Kazaan]

If (and this is a big if), Reach can apply to mfg weapons as well as natural weapons, then it would simply add 5' to a chosen attack, just as Lunge does (but sans AC penalty and not limited to just your turn). So, with a standard reach weapon (ie. Longspear), you could do the following for a default medium creature:

Longspear: attack @ 10'
- w/ Reach: attack @ 10-15'
- w/ Lunge: attack @ 10-15' on your turn w/ AC penalty
- w/ Reach and Lunge: attack @ 10-20' on your turn w/ AC peanlty
- w/ Large size: attack @ 15-20'
--- w/ Reach: attack @ 15-25'
--- w/ Lunge: attack @ 15-25' on your turn w/ AC penalty
--- w/ Reach and Lunge: attack @ 15-30' on your turn w/ AC penalty

Basically, to calculate your attack with Reaching weapons, you take your base natural reach from size, double it, then remove the original reach as a "dead zone". If you have a natural reach of 5' (small/medium), then reach lets you attack at 10', but you lose 5'. If your natural reach is 5-10' (large), then reach lets you attack the next 10' (15-20') at the loss of the original 10' (5-10').

[Claxon]

While the Eidolon's Evolution doesn't explicitly say that it's only for natural attacks, consider the phrase "Evolution". It implies biological improvements.

And while definitely not a cannon source, Herolab also doesn't allow for the reach evolution to be applied to non-natural weapons.

[Falcar]

Do keep in mind that evolutions do not always effect biological things. There is an evolution to be proficient in weapons. I personally see that it makes sense to have the reach work for a weapon. Although the rules seem to be lacking on a definite so I cannot be certain that is what is meant to be true.

[Komoda]

Seriously, this is a question? No matter what, normal reach weapons of your size double your reach.

The fact that it is an evolution that gives reach doesn't mean anything.

The only question is if you can use a weapon at all. If you add reach to gore, then no weapon. If you add reach to your arms that already allow you to use weapons, then you are good to go.