Oddly enough, searching the boards for the word "tank" turned up nothing. As is, I have a pretty good idea of what classes in Pathfinder best fall into certain roles from an optimization standpoint, relatively arguably, of course.
The role of tank eludes me though. Where logically a class proficient in heavy armor would be the immediate go-to for a prime tank role, it's not necessarily the case, with class abilities akin to certain attack deflections and damage reduction to consider, and even if innate heavy armor prof. classes are ultimately the best, there are a fair amount of classes that fall into that category, with multiple options in each.
So, that being the case, what class/PrC do you consider the most efficient tank, and under which options available through the PRD make it so? To keep it less subjective, I'll add the stipulation that everyone defines their own idea of 'tank' and should be capable of fulfilling that definition from roughly levels 5+.
I look forward to your responses and, hopefully, builds in regards to this.
(also, brand new to the forums and posting from my phone, so please excuse any spacing or subsection designation errors this thread may have. Thanks.)
-Atra
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Luring Cavalier. Or anyone with Antagonize. Or both.
I've got a 3rd level dwarf fighter in PFS I'm turning (slowly) into the annoying tank. I've already got WF: Dwarven Waraxe, Toughness (with a 16 CON, too), Power Attack, and Step Up. I plan on getting Following Step, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, and eventually work on Disruptive and Spellbreaker. The idea is to wade into combat (and past the front lines if necessary), find an enemy spellcaster and stick onto him like glue. Not as effective at damage-dealing, but just as annoying as heck.
Antagonize would be a great addition to this build, had I not dumpstatted both Intelligence and Charisma (5 CHA FTW!), and I don't have the skill points for Intimidate. Plus Intimidate doesn't fit the concept.
I'm playing a Barbarin 2/ Monk 10 right now and have proven to be a ridiculously good party tank. High hit points and even higher when raging with a minimum 4 attacks with a flurry I take the heat off of other players and deal some serious damage. Though admittedly some of our group's house rules have allowed me to play a monk much more effectively than RAW.
Though even a Monk RAW can a pretty effective tank. Don't count out the largely ignored bad ass that a Monk can be.
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The 3 points of the tanking triangle:
1) threat
2) control
3) mitigation
1) In order to be a threat to the enemy (and therefore be targeted) you need to do different things depending on the enemy. Mindless or animal intelligence creatures may attack you for simply being the closest target. Next to that, dealing large amounts of damage will make you a preferred target as well. More intelligent enemies will attack weak but dangerous targets, which will work against you. This is actually the hardest part of tanking to achieve in pathfinder. You will generally have to be a solid damage dealer to be a tank, which will frequently exclude many builds that otherwise look very "tanky".
2) Control for the tank is simple: keep the enemies where you want them doing what you want them to do. Frequently the most effective character at this part of tanking is actually a caster. For the more traditional tank types (read: mundane melee), this will likely involve the use of combat maneuvers, but can be accomplished a bit through threatening attacks of opprotunity.
3) Mitigation is the easiest of the three tanking points for the pathfinder tank to achieve. For the purposes of this discussion, what is meant by mitigation is reducing the impact of offensive effects on the party as a whole. This breaks into two parts: effective hit points and resistance to negative effects (spells etc.). This means some combination of HP, AC, saves, DR, self healing, etc. Basically anything that can keep you effective longer.
Keeping these things in mind, I'd use an invulnerable rager superstitious barbarian. He'll have a reach weapon and spiked breastplate. He'll take the beast totem line of rage powers and increased DR. He'll have combat reflexes, improved inititative, power attack, and raging vitality. He considers using his attacks of opprotunity to trip. He would consider taking his first 2 levels in monk and dropping the armor. He wants high str and con, decent dex and wis, and dumps int and cha. He boosts acrobatics to fight defensively and tumble. He takes perception because... it's good. He puts most of his wealth into the "big 6".
Lol @ Fuel. Good idea, and honestly probably something that would be applauded for ingenuity at most tables, but will only be allowed to go on for so long and can't exactly maintain any real tank-hood. Wonderful cunning, inferior sustainability and aggro.
The eidolon is an interesting option, I actually, after all the optimization, consider the summoner a top melee contender (especially synthesist), but I hadn't really considered it for tanking. It's made especially effective by the -relatively- low cost of your eidolon actually being brought to 0 also.
Cavalier was so far at the top for me with tanking in mind, although, without having seen it in play, is made to seem somewhat reliant on party composition.
Good responses so far.
For me a tank needs
1. High defences- In game terms this is High AC, High Saves, and Moderate to high hit points.
Tanks are supposed to be hard to Hurt. The can shrug off attacks that would drop other things.
2. A BIG Fu*&!ng Gun.- Tanks are supposed to do a ton of Damage.
The best classes or Archetypes that spring to my mind are.
1. PALADIN- Heavy Armor, Cha to Saves and D10 HD, plus lay on hands.
Paladins effectively have swift action HP whenever they need it. They can be hard to affect with Magic and if they wanna use a shield can be hard to hit. Their BFG is Smite.
2. Human/Dwarf Invulnerable Rager- Either a Superstitious Human or a Steel Soul/Glory of Old Dwarf will actually have even higher saves than a Paladin. Their AC is actually only Middling IF you work on it and crap if you don't but this is offset by a Mountain of HP and Big DR/- dropping the damage you actually take. 2 handed weapon+RAGE is their BFG. Not quite as powerful as Smite but works on all baddies and the BARB gets POUNCE.
3. Steel Soul Dwarf Wit hunter Inquisitor- Again MASSIVE saves vs Magic (and STALWART class ability). Decent AC with a Shield/Buckler and Healing Magic, can really shrug off attacks. His BFG is Stacking Divine Power/Judgement and Bane. Domain Selection can also help. Rage Subdomain makes a Bigger Gun or Protection makes saves an auto pass (barring 1's) and frees up cloak slot for cloak of Displacement
To respond to the two that posted while I was writing (again, on a phone, takes a fair bit), misunderstood monk- this was the class I had in kind when I mentioned attack deflection, through crane style. And Riuken, barbarian was what I was thinking when I said damage reduction.
So considering responses so far, maybe a Monk/Barbarian with the aggro feats brought up prior?
@Ranger- the Paladin and Inquisitor seem to approach the same issues but in very different ways. I'd love to see how each approach them over a series of levels.
Would most consider Paladin, from a vanilla view, the standard option tank?
I've been playing an Order of the Warrior Samurai who has proven a flexible and tough tank.
Some highlights:
- heavy armor, access to all martial weapons plus some oriental weapons
- full BAB
- challenge (gets bonus to damage equal to samurai level a bit like Paladin's smite). Challenge also gives him a little DR/- against the target of his challenge.
- full level companion horse (great flank buddy, transportation and blocks off a 10' square)
- resolve (let's him roll two d20s for fort and will saves choosing the better among other things)
- greater resolve (can spend a use of resolve to turn a confirmed critical hit against him into a regular hit)
- Honor in All Things gives a +4 bonus to a save or skill check
- Way of the Samurai lets him spend a use of resolve to roll three d20s for a single attack, saving throw or skill check.
He generally fights with a katana (two-handed) but can pick up a shield in a pinch (still doing decent damage because of his challenge), fight on horseback with a lance (or bow) or start a fight with pole-arm for reach and combat maneuvers.
Trip fighter. If enemies close with the party, they fall down and die before they get up. If they don't close with the party, you've done your job.
To be fair, I'm not sure my GM really had much of a idea how to handle trip fighters.
Master Summoner.
Most tanks have the mortal flaw in that you care if they die. Even your eidolon is inconvenient to lose. Summons, however? Throw them away all day, and you can raise walls of meat that can be all over the place and do horrible, horrible things.
my friends and i play RotRL and we got a halfling monk with touch of serenity and he is by far the best tank i`ve seen, without being optimized, he just has ridiculous AC, usually goes first, moves a ton and blocks/uses the ToS on a big guy untill the rest of us catch up
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The following is a level 20 build for summoner that can literally fight butt naked with out any items and makes a great tank.
Race: Half Elf
Class: Summoner (Synthesist Archetype)
Stats: Str = 10
Dex = 10
Con = 17 with racial modifier
Int = 13
Wis = 14
Cha = 14
when leveling add 3 to con and 2 to cha
take the Half Elf Favored Class Option for Summoner
Eidolon's base form Aquatic
Powers obtained via Eidolon = -Fast Healing x4
-Natural Armor x5
-Limbs x3
-Claws x3
-All 5 immunities
Feats = -Extra Evolution x5
-Toughness
-Dodge
-Combat Expertise
-Combat Reflexes
-Resilient Eidolon
this build with no items magical or other wise gives the following statistics at lv 20 when infused with your Eidolon:
Heath = 320 with out Eidolon and 485 when fused with it
Immunity to all damage excluding force, physical, positive and negative
Fast Healing 4
7 attacks a round at full bab each (15)
AC = 51 with out Combat Expertise and 56 with Combat Expertise
Self Healing via Class spell list
i ay be a tad off on math and health is if all the hd are at max
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a Magus (Kensai) 1/ Rogue 3/ Master Spy prestige class 1/ Fighter (Lore Warden) 15. Focus on using a whip wich u will get free from Magus. Feats u get for free are Weapon Focus and combat expertise. Feats i suggest to pick up are Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Lunge, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, and finally Shatter Defenses. The class and feat combos will make u the most deadly melee combantant on the field. As a full round attack u will be able to intimidate all enemies in a 30ft radius using both str and cha that will grant the noral demorilize effects that all allies get to take advabtage of but it also make them all flat footed to u aswell. U will b then able to make a 20ft aoe whirlwind attack with ur whip that will aply sneak attack damage. On single or few numbwer of target u will b able to do 7, 9 if both whips have the speed enchant, trip attacks that will provoke an AoO for u and any allies that are standing near them when they fall prone as well when they get back up. Also performing the trips on enemies means the less attacks they get off since it take a move action to stand up leaving them only a standard and swift action to take advantage of.
This is more on the terms of DPR but if ur tripping a target that means the less likely its gona run from u and the less times its also gona hit u.
I really like a Brawler arctype fighter with crane style /improved stalwart/ pin down/ step up/ stand still using cestus. Covers the mitigation/threat/control portions well. Has low saves so dwarf might be a must.
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Human
Fighter with the Armor Master Archetype
Stats (25 point build)
Str 14
Dex 16 +2 from racial
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10
Feats
01 Shield Focus, Dodge, Combat Expertise
02 Combat Reflexes
03 Stand Still
04 Missile Shield
05 Step Up
06 Improved Unarmed Strike
07 Deflect Arrows
08 Greater Shield Focus
09 Disruptive
10 Spellbreaker
11 Pin Down
12 Ray Shield
13 Crane Style
14 Crane Wing
15 Crane Riposte
16 Improved Trip
17 Greater Trip
18
19
20
this build is to negate attacks that would normally hit u and make it almost impossible for enemies to get away from u.
Orcish dirty fighter archetype because at level 9 your AoO's can be dirty tricks and blind your opponents. Much easier to protect the party squishies if the bad guys can't see them.
i vote master summoner as well. don't use the big summon, summon 1d3 smaller creatures who serve the purpose of damaging the enemy, taking space, and soaking damage without needing to be healed.
Orcish dirty fighter archetype because at level 9 your AoO's can be dirty tricks and blind your opponents. Much easier to protect the party squishies if the bad guys can't see them.
You do have a Plan B for creatures with Blindsense, right?
Wow... Well at least, for the most part, I can take solace in the fact that I'm not exactly on my own when it comes to having trouble defining a standard optimized class that best fits the tank role. In the last few hours since my last post I've gotten Paladin, Samurai, a few fighters, a couple summoners, rogue builds, and monk builds. Certainly says something all on it's own.
The increasingly more enlightening realization that a great many classes can successfully fill such a typical and almost trite party role, intriguing as it is, aside, I do have some, what I believe to be fairly reasonable, issues with a couple of them that I'd like to address. First being the master summoner. Where expendable meat sacks are a viable and creative way to approach the tank theme, the master summoner specifically is a hard class to justify in a non-solo campaign, though the thought behind it's mechanics are still able to be duplicated in a more balanced manner in any campaign by other classes/alternatives.
Another, and far less restricted, suggestion that came up multiple times but I have some trouble really considering is the trip build. Setting aside and understanding that defeat and/or crippling is a great way to keep damage off of your paper-skinned companions, it's only truly viable for so many levels. When at latest the higher mid range level challenges will consist of mostly foes that can't be tripped, it's simply an impending inevitability that you're meticulously focused build loses all relevance. A superb build from low to mid, hard-pressed to be as useful past that.
Weird as it is, with all the established monk-hatred ingrained in the CharOp
(cut me off) .. community, monks seem to have a place in competing for the title. The heavy armor classes expectedly have the majority, but it's hard to choose a standalone really. Synthesist at this point is almost universally accepted as broken, but at least it's easier to pull off on an unaware GM than master summoner is at a glance.
Interesting so far, does anyone feel that any of the realistically reasonable builds so far truly outshines the others?
Wizard. can summon like a master summoner, has spells like blur and mirror image to protect themselves and their allies, can use various DR buffs and similar defenses, and can summon illusions to tank as well.
I really love the differentiation in approaches, specifically attack negation focus like Psion-Psycho's last build, high durability through hp and and DR, and the focus of control through reach and prevention, but few of these actually motivate enemy attention. I think it's interesting that I was originally answered with "antagonize, antagonize, antagonize" but it has yet to come up in any subsequent builds past the first couple replies.
@Fuel- Where the ACME reminiscent wizard-in-a-box idea was both hilarious and very imaginative, a typical wizard just buffing the crap out of itself, especially with a good amount of short duration spells which means it'd take multiple turns even with quickens, and then sending him into the front-lines to take the majority of attacks is a lot harder to realistically accept.
Without the obvious faults, I did also suggest the build make a viable tank from 5+. Where a wizard, after enough manipulation, can pass as a tank..sort of.. an average wizard with average buffs in any campaign like those you named is not a tank. By the time you cast those spells, you're doing so to keep your Jell-O-like body alive, not to run into the center of the fray.
@Fuel- Where the ACME reminiscent wizard-in-a-box idea was both hilarious and very imaginative, a typical wizard just buffing the crap out of itself, especially with a good amount of short duration spells which means it'd take multiple turns even with quickens, and then sending him into the front-lines to take the majority of attacks is a lot harder to realistically accept.
Without the obvious faults, I did also suggest the build make a viable tank from 5+. Where a wizard, after enough manipulation, can pass as a tank..sort of.. an average wizard with average buffs in any campaign like those you named is not a tank. By the time you cast those spells, you're doing so to keep your Jell-O-like body alive, not to run into the center of the fray.
Let's agree to disagree on that one... then again, half the time I play a scrying diviner when i go a wizard so I usually have appropriate buffs up from the get go when it's my turn to tank, at least when I can scry the room a little before hand.
Also, there is one great thing about wizard tanks: your enemies come to you! You're automatically high on their threat radar by virtue of being a wizard.
The final strength wizard tanks have is counterspelling. locking down an enemy caster for long enough for the fighter to take him out is quite valuable, if somewhat action intensive and circumstantial.
However, I do fully agree with you that an unprepared wizard, or even one simply subjected to a greater dispel magic or antimagic field, or one that's out of spells, is not a tank. They're a piece of meat wearing a bit of cloth.
I'm playing a Barbarin 2/ Monk 10 right now and have proven to be a ridiculously good party tank. High hit points and even higher when raging with a minimum 4 attacks with a flurry I take the heat off of other players and deal some serious damage. Though admittedly some of our group's house rules have allowed me to play a monk much more effectively than RAW.
just noticed ex-monk loses nothing, BUT ex-barbarian lose rage?
wierd
If 3pp material is available, the psychic warrior can make a very good tank (claws of the beast for a decent damage weapon, expansion to get large size and reach, claws of the vampire to gain a little healing via claws of the beast). Plus access to utility powers.
Well, I'll agree to disagree if need be, but it really isn't so much a personal opinion as it is the basic game intentions. Wizards are stereotypically the first class one thinks of when thinking of the term 'squishy', the very thing the tank should be prioritizing to protect more often than not.
I alluded to the idea that the wizard can become a pseudo-tank if necessary but that's not the idea here. A wizard isn't meant to be a tank and it shows. Where you can argue that at higher levels the % chance, concealment, etc. means of damage prevention is more effective than AC, you're still dealing with a vastly inferior hp pool.
Without even considering those points, this thread is meant to pursue the best tank, not the vaguely passable. Not counting the inability to tank at all in earlier levels and the lowest hp achievable, the most potent point to make is that not only do you need to stack multiple buffs that take both actions and resources, both of which are better suited being spent on whatever your wizard focuses on (battlefield control, blasting, save or suck, and really almost anything but pure unadulterated survivability), but the majority of other, almost always innately meatier, builds are combining static class abilities and feats that mitigate the type of circumstantial bonuses your focusing entirely on exploiting. Hp, intrinsic deflections, constant damage reduction, etc.
I love the wizard, but he can't do it all, and frankly, has better things to do, especially in this case where he just sucks at the alternative: for arguments sake, sucks relatively to classes built for it at least.
There is number of ways to be a Monk, and not be Lawful.
One way is killing the sacred cow of "Monk must be Lawful", which I as a DM personally reccomend.
@Castatra: my apologies, you're right. This thread is for 'best' tank, not 'lets see how far from standard i can play my wizard'.
EDIT: I will throw in that for 'tanking' spells, a sorcerer with dispel magic and improved counterspell is pretty decent.
Orcish dirty fighter archetype because at level 9 your AoO's can be dirty tricks and blind your opponents. Much easier to protect the party squishies if the bad guys can't see them.You do have a Plan B for creatures with Blindsense, right?
Take your pick of entangled, shaken, sickened or deafened you an even stack a few for fun with the greater dirty trick's duration.
So as it stands we're looking primarily at Fighter, Monk, Barbarian, Magus, and Paladin. When I get to my computer I'll attempt to flesh out the general ideas each can take, including lesser mentioned classes like Samurai and Cavalier. From there, maybe we can agree on some unavoidably arbitrary measurements of a community definition of 'tank' to test in order to systematically deduce a best tank, or at least narrow down the potential contenders. I think Riuken's rules work fine; shaping them into a measurable form may be a challenging endeavor though. Ideas certainly welcome.
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Master Summoner.
Most tanks have the mortal flaw in that you care if they die. Even your eidolon is inconvenient to lose. Summons, however? Throw them away all day, and you can raise walls of meat that can be all over the place and do horrible, horrible things.
i vote master summoner as well. don't use the big summon, summon 1d3 smaller creatures who serve the purpose of damaging the enemy, taking space, and soaking damage without needing to be healed.
I too vote the Master Summoner as one of the best tanks.
The class provides:Battlefield control
Damage soaking
Damage output
Cost efficient, disposable summons. (Less HP lost on party members)
Great Buffing spells - Haste at level 4.
Multitasking - Use summons as scouts, messengers, skill monkeys... etc.
The class can work in a full party, as long as the player comes prepared and is able to give quick and precision decisions in combat.
Players in-experience with summons, may bog down a game, but in the hands of a good player, a Master Summoner can protect the party better then almost any other single class.
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If a wizard can tank a sorcerer->dragon disciple can tank better. D12 hit die and natural armor bonuses make you a lot less squishy even if you wind up only an 8 level caster instead of 9.
Bards and I think Magi also have all the miss chance spells of a wizard, cast in light armor (which means elven chain) and have d8 hit dice.
Bards put even the weakest medium BAB classes up with the full martials. What they do with full martials is... They're not quite as obvious a target as a wizard, but the smart enemy should probably prioritize them nearly as high.
Magi use more traditional scary damage aggro.
As a GM I try not to metagame and target the bard players (thankfully my players still have a major bias against them from the 3.x days). However, as a player if there is a bard (or some other NPC providing bardic performance) in a group of mobs, it is usually my number one kill target, this includes eating no less than 3-4 AoOs just to get at it.
So the best tank in your games is an illusionist who creates major images of bards? :P
I'm playing a Barbarin 2/ Monk 10 right now and have proven to be a ridiculously good party tank. High hit points and even higher when raging with a minimum 4 attacks with a flurry I take the heat off of other players and deal some serious damage. Though admittedly some of our group's house rules have allowed me to play a monk much more effectively than RAW.
My one question is did you go 10 levels monk then 2 levels barb, or 2 levels barb then 10 levels. If you went the latter, then you can't rage. Ex Barbarians (those who turn lawful) lose their ability to rage, and also the their rage powers. If you chose to go, monk > barb, then you are fine (so long as you don't plan on taking any more monk levels)
From there, maybe we can agree on some unavoidably arbitrary measurements of a community definition of 'tank' to test in order to systematically deduce a best tank, or at least narrow down the potential contenders.
I don't think your going to ever deduce the "best" tank because different people will have different requirements. Instead, you'll end up with something more useful - a collection of different ways that the "tank" requirement can be filled.
May I suggest "Castatra's Guide to Tanking" where you collect different builds that people have used for tanking and describe how and why each one works?
I'm playing a Barbarin 2/ Monk 10 right now and have proven to be a ridiculously good party tank. High hit points and even higher when raging with a minimum 4 attacks with a flurry I take the heat off of other players and deal some serious damage. Though admittedly some of our group's house rules have allowed me to play a monk much more effectively than RAW.My one question is did you go 10 levels monk then 2 levels barb, or 2 levels barb then 10 levels. If you went the latter, then you can't rage. Ex Barbarians (those who turn lawful) lose their ability to rage, and also the their rage powers. If you chose to go, monk > barb, then you are fine (so long as you don't plan on taking any more monk levels)
Order wouldn't matter if you either took the martial artist archetype of monk or the aasimar racial ability that lets you be a neutral good monk.