A rogue thief gets Dex to attack and damage for melee attacks. What about things like grapple that use an athletics check instead of a melee attack?
He only gets dex to damage. Dex to attack is a feature of finesse weapons.
There's arguments that you can use your dex bonus if you use a finesse weapon with a maneuver trait, such as using a rapier to disarm or a whip to trip someone. Last I checked it looked like this would be the case but we're still waiting for a final judgment of the designers.
If you are proficient in unarmed combat, can you use dex to grapple?
No. It's still an athletics check and those are strength based.
The other maneuvers are also athletics checks.
Yes, a finesse weapon with the appropriate trait MIGHT allow you to use finesse for those maneuvers of you use that weapon to perform them. But besic fist attacks do not have any of the maneuver weapon traits. Some monk stance unarmed strikes do, though, so those might work.
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The other maneuvers are also athletics checks.
Yes, maneuvers are Athletics checks which are skill checks which use Strength by default. Maneuvers are also attack rolls (and are both subject to and add to MAP). This is important. An action can have multiple traits. Being a skill roll doesn't disqualify it from being an attack roll too.
So if you have a whip, for example, you get a chain of reasoning which at least one developer has said is exactly how they run it.
Whip (Trip quality) lets you use it for Trips. Trips are attack rolls.
Whip (Finesse quality) lets you use Dex for attack rolls.
Therefore you can use a whip to Trip, using Dex on the attack roll.
Note: Finesse does not limit you to Strikes. "Attack rolls" is its own specific game term.
I don't think it's subject to any debate. People might come to this issue uninformed, but the writing's crystal clear.
Grapple is a bit tougher, as I only think Barbarian Instinct Apes get that, and it's not finesse. Other than Lasso (ranged) and Man-Catcher (unlikely to be Finesse), I can't think of what might come out in the future to allow Dex to grapple (other than a feat).
If you do have low Str, Assurance (Athletics) is a solid investment (since you're a Skill Feat wealthy Rogue) if you want to do maneuvers. It puts your "roll" on the low side, but is high enough to automatically effect some creatures, even when your MAP or other penalties are high.
Thanks for the response Castilliano. Very thorough and concise. Makes sense.
I have been considering multi classing into barbarian and had already spotted the ape instinct ability that gives unarmed attacks the grapple weapon quality. I have been unsure exactly what that would do, though. If it does allow my character to use dex while grappling, then it makes an intriguing choice.
As for assurance, it's not so great to use for grappling. My character has the feat, but it will rarely work against anything that is the same level as the character. Most monsters appear to have Fort as a "good save" and will always be ahead of the curve vs assurance with athletics.
That being said, I have gotten it to work once.
Thanks for the response Castilliano. Very thorough and concise. Makes sense.
Yeah, sorry about my posts being s short. I had no time for more at that moment.
I have been considering multi classing into barbarian and had already spotted the ape instinct ability that gives unarmed attacks the grapple weapon quality. I have been unsure exactly what that would do, though. If it does allow my character to use dex while grappling, then it makes an intriguing choice.
That won't work. The ape instinct attacks don't have the Finesse trait, so you can't use Dex for them at all
All the grapple ability on those atacks does is allowing you get your unarmed attack's item bonus (if any) to the athletics check for grapple.
Thanks for the response Castilliano. Very thorough and concise. Makes sense.
I have been considering multi classing into barbarian and had already spotted the ape instinct ability that gives unarmed attacks the grapple weapon quality. I have been unsure exactly what that would do, though. If it does allow my character to use dex while grappling, then it makes an intriguing choice.
As for assurance, it's not so great to use for grappling. My character has the feat, but it will rarely work against anything that is the same level as the character. Most monsters appear to have Fort as a "good save" and will always be ahead of the curve vs assurance with athletics.
That being said, I have gotten it to work once.
Unless you can make the Ape's attack Finesse, it has to use Strength.
I doubt there will ever be a way, not for d10 attacks.The use of Ape is that if you have Handiwraps you can use their bonus on your Athletics roll. So you are better at Grappling as an Ape because of it because there aren't many bonus sources. Grappling seems like a hard path (unlike in PF1 where it dominated). Perhaps w/ MCD Monk, the two classes could make a brutal grappler. But are they doing enough damage too? Or getting enough crit successes to shut anyone down?
Assurance is horrible for Grappling (except maybe minions).
I was thinking more Trip, which works well against at level Giants, Zombies, and other lumbering brutes. And thug minions.
And with Grapple, you kind of want that critical success, much like w/ Disarm. That's the true goal.
May have to toy with Grapple, though more likely for use by an enemy!
Also Thief Dex to Damage only applies to melee weapon attacks which rules out unarmed attacks. Unfortunately the rackets don’t do you much good as a unarmed character.
There must be something about the Ape Instinct ability that I don't understand. I thought it just gave you proficiency with "fist" and gave that attack more damage as well as the grapple quality. Isn't unarmed attacks a light weapon that can be used with weapon finness?
There must be something about the Ape Instinct ability that I don't understand. I thought it just gave you proficiency with "fist" and gave that attack more damage as well as the grapple quality. Isn't unarmed attacks a light weapon that can be used with weapon finness?
No, each Unarmed Strike is unique and has its own traits.
The universal "Fist" listed in the weapon chapter is your basic human fist and has it's own traits.
Likewise, the Ape Instinct's "Fist" has its own traits, which do not include the Finesse Trait.
So those are two different kinds of Unarmed Strikes, which both happen to be called "Fist".
Also Thief Dex to Damage only applies to melee weapon attacks which rules out unarmed attacks. Unfortunately the rackets don’t do you much good as a unarmed character.
Unarmed attacks are under weapon category and use weapon die and upgrade their weapon die with Handwraps of Mighty Blows.
Nevermind that they have a weapon group, weapon traits and a critical specialization effect. But they're not
unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
That's a bit roundbout way to go but good to know all the same.
I guess that means that the wording in Powerful Fists: "You know how to wield your fists as deadly weapons. " isn't exactly meant to be read as RAW and doesn't infact turn fists into deadly weapons, but also doesn't apply to kicks or headbutts since it specifies "fists". The specific wording of monk overrules the general rule for unarmed attacks, kind of like how Irori's Favored weapon is fists, not unarmed attacks?
Side note: Wolf Jaw stance isn't technically a fist since it specifies one holding their hands in a jaw-like manner (open hand =/= fist).
Wolf Jaw stance isn't technically a fist since it specifies one holding their hands in a jaw-like manner (open hand =/= fist).
None of the Stance strikes is a "Fist". They are their own types of Unarmed Strikes and don't interact with Powerful Fist at all.
And even multiple unarmed strikes with the same name are each unique and they don't need to have the same traits. An example would be the various Jaws attacks available to Barbarians via the Animal Instinct. Only the Wolf Instinct's Jaws has the Trip trait.