The description of Form Control states:
If your next action is to cast wild shape, wild shape’s spell level is 2 lower than normal (minimum 1st level).
What does that actually do?
Can I use insect shape for an hour as soon as I get the feat with lvl 6 (the spell level being 1, not 3)? Or do I have to wait untill I reach druid lvl 9 to be able to use insect shape for one hour?
The description of Form Control states:
If your next action is to cast wild shape, wild shape’s spell level is 2 lower than normal (minimum 1st level).What does that actually do?
Can I use insect shape for an hour as soon as I get the feat with lvl 6 (the spell level being 1, not 3)? Or do I have to wait untill I reach druid lvl 9 to be able to use insect shape for one hour?
Insect form is spell level 3 so I'd say you could use Form Control insect form at level 7. It will be the spell level 3 version of insect form though.
Insect form is spell level 3 so I'd say you could use Form Control insect form at level 7. It will be the spell level 3 version of insect form though.The description of Form Control states:
If your next action is to cast wild shape, wild shape’s spell level is 2 lower than normal (minimum 1st level).What does that actually do?
Can I use insect shape for an hour as soon as I get the feat with lvl 6 (the spell level being 1, not 3)? Or do I have to wait untill I reach druid lvl 9 to be able to use insect shape for one hour?
It changes the spell level, not the character level. At seventh level you have access to 4th level spells, so a spell level-2 would be 2nd.
Which is still a 'fatal exception error' - the rules don't speak one way or another about casting spells below their starting level. If it were a computer program, it would just crash at this point.
Needs a clear FAQ answer, otherwise its 'bribe the DM until they say yes' rules
So, to clarify: You can shift into an insect for one hour with level 6, as soon as you take the feat Insect Shape?
So, to clarify: You can shift into an insect for one hour with level 6, as soon as you take the feat Insect Shape?
No you wouldn't. You'd have to be level 9 and able to cast 5th level spells. Insect form is a third level spell. One thing to remember is when you cast wild shape, you're just casting the individual form spell of whatever you're turning into. Look at this line in the text of wild shape;
When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape's level.
So in effect, wild shape is no different than casting each individual form spell, it's just heightened and costs focus.
See, this does not seem to be clear (to me, at least). You do not cast the respective spell, you gain forms of that spell to your wild shape list, but you are using the feat to change into the respective forms. As such, the diminished spell level from form control should have no meaning for changing into the form of an insect for an hour with lvl 6 (or a dragon for an hour with lvl 12). But you can not use the hightened benefits of these forms untill much later (because of the diminished spell level). That's how I read it.
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See, this does not seem to be clear (to me, at least). You do not cast the respective spell, you gain forms of that spell to your wild shape list, but you are using the feat to change into the respective forms. As such, the diminished spell level from form control should have no meaning for changing into the form of an insect for an hour with lvl 6 (or a dragon for an hour with lvl 12). But you can not use the hightened benefits of these forms untill much later (because of the diminished spell level). That's how I read it.
I agree with this. As written, there is no rule saying a spell must be cast as its printed level if another spell says it allows you to replicate it. I also agree the intention is probably for this to not be allowed...but what actually says it? As is the only thing this does is prevent you from using Form Control with "Animal Form" until 7th level.
Focus Spells state Focus Spells must be the minimum level even if you somehow gain access to it, but there is no mention of other spells (such as the ones Wild Shape casts)
The way the feat is written is certainly unclear. My interpretation of what I think it is supposed to say is:
You can have the duration last for an hour if it satisfies both of the following conditions:
1) It is a form that you are normally allowed to take using wildshape because you've chosen the relevant feats to grant access to that form.
And 2) The form you're using is taken from the allowed forms under a particular spell which can be cast at a level which is two levels lower than your highest level Druid spell. If a form appears under a spell that would not be castable using a spell slot two levels lower than your highest level spell slot then you can use that form with form control.
This would mean:
At level 4 you can't use form control at all.
At level 5 you can use form control only when changing into a mouse or other non-flying form listed under pest form.
At level 7 you can use form control only for the base (non heightened) animals listed under animal form, and for basic humanoid forms using the non heightened version of humanoid form if you have thousand faces.
At level 9 you can use any forms available through a 3rd level spell slot, so you could use animal forms based on the animal form spell heightened to 3rd level.
At level 11 you can use form control to take on any form attainable via a 4th level spell, or lower level spell heighted to fourth level. This would include the basic forms from Aerial Form.
And so on.
Note that this renders Form control completely worthless until you are at least 7th level. Wild shape already lets you be a mouse for 10 minutes.
At level 7 this becomes useful for scouting using scent, for faster overland travel, and for natural climb and swim speeds, and for cultural blending in if you have thousand faces.
At level 11 this becomes useful for extended flight.
At no level is this ever useful for combat. You'd be going into combat with a form two levels below your best combat form, which is a huge disadvantage.
Anyway, that's how I think it is supposed to work. Useless in combat but from level 7 onwards it becomes reasonably useful for non-combat tasks.
At level 4 you can't use form control at all.
Form control has a minimum built into it so at level 4 it functions just the way you describe it at level 5.
Other than that I think you've got it.
RAW vs RAI.
RAW, you can use Insect Shape with Form Control as soon as you get Insect Shape.
RAI, well, it's up to the DM.
So, if you play PFS, you should be able to do it (the GM can always complain, but in PFS, you expect quite a focus on RAW, especially when it touches character builds, something you can't easily modify on the spot).
If you don't play PFS, check with your DM.
RAW vs RAI.
RAW, you can use Insect Shape with Form Control as soon as you get Insect Shape.
RAI, well, it's up to the DM.
So, if you play PFS, you should be able to do it (the GM can always complain, but in PFS, you expect quite a focus on RAW, especially when it touches character builds, something you can't easily modify on the spot).
If you don't play PFS, check with your DM.
I disagree with your RAW (for reasons stated above by others).
For PFS, I'd avoid such shenanigans.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
RAW vs RAI.
RAW, you can use Insect Shape with Form Control as soon as you get Insect Shape.
No, you can't, at least not if you take Insect Shape at 6th level.
WILD SHAPE FOCUS 1
UNCOMMON DRUID POLYMORPH TRANSMUTATION
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Duration 1 minute (or longer)
You infuse yourself with primal essence and transform yourself
into another form. You can polymorph into any form listed in
pest form, which lasts 10 minutes. All other wild shape forms
last 1 minute. You can add more forms to your wild shape list
with druid feats; your feat might grant you some or all of the
forms from a given polymorph spell. When you transform into
a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form
you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape’s
level. Wild shape allows you to use your own shapeshifting
training more easily than most polymorph spells. When you
choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed
instead of the form’s default attack modifier, you gain a +2
status bonus to your attack rolls.
FORM CONTROL [one-action] FEAT 4
DRUID MANIPULATE METAMAGIC
Prerequisites Strength 14, Wild Shape
With additional care and effort, you can take on an alternate form for a longer period
of time. If your next action is to cast wild shape, wild shape’s spell level is 2 lower than
normal (minimum 1st level), but you can remain transformed for up to 1 hour or the listed
duration (whichever is longer). You can still Dismiss the form at any time, as permitted
by the spell.
At 6th Level, Wild Shape is a level 3 spell. Form Control reduces it to level 1. Insect Form is a level 3 spell. You can't Heighten a level 3 spell to level 1. You can't use Form Control with Insect Shape until 9th level.
I disagree with your RAW (for reasons stated above by others).
For PFS, I'd avoid such shenanigans.
You have no rule to back up you "reasons". Insect Form adds forms to your wild shape list. Nothing states you need the spell to be of a certain level to use the basic ones. And there are no rules about "downcasting a spell" anyway.
And I've seen so many Sorcerer/Wizard or whatever ridiculous class combinations just for the sake of optimization that I don't think anyone cares about "shenanigans" in PFS. If it's RAW, people will use it and at some point everyone will consider it normal.
Also, Form Control has a tough prerequisite, 14 Strength is something for a Druid. You also need to take the top of the notch Wild Shape feat (while you don't need any Wild Shape feat before level 11 without Form Control). Every odd levels, you will lose one level of Wild Shape, so it has a combat impact. It also has the impact of not letting you choose your form at the beginning of combat or choose to not wild shape to cast spells. While Wild Shaped you can't cast spells, manipulate, nor speak, so it has an impact in your exploration ability. It costs you one Focus Point even if you don't face a combat during the hour, so you will very often refocus immediately, slowing the party progression. And you just gain 2 actions at the beginning of combat.
If you compare it to Sudden Charge, a first level feat giving you one action every now and then, with no prerequisite and no negative impact on your combat ability, this is far from game breaking.
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At 6th Level, Wild Shape is a level 3 spell. Form Control reduces it to level 1. Insect Form is a level 3 spell. You can't Heighten a level 3 spell to level 1. You can't use Form Control with Insect Shape until 9th level.
Except you're not casting Insect Form directly. You're casting the first level Focus Spell Wild Shape, which the feat specifically adds the list of forms from Insect Shape to those available. The base text if Insect Form puts no level restrictions in place.
Is this intended? Almost certainly not. But it is what's written. I was a little surprised this wasn't in the first errata.
At 6th Level, Wild Shape is a level 3 spell. Form Control reduces it to level 1. Insect Form is a level 3 spell. You can't Heighten a level 3 spell to level 1. You can't use Form Control with Insect Shape until 9th level.Except you're not casting Insect Form directly. You're casting the first level Focus Spell Wild Shape, which the feat specifically adds the list of forms from Insect Shape to those available. The base text if Insect Form puts no level restrictions in place.
Is this intended? Almost certainly not. But it is what's written. I was a little surprised this wasn't in the first errata.
I disagree. When used with Form Control, it adds the forms of a Level 1 Insect Form to your list. Level 1 Insect Form doesn't exist, so it adds nothing.