First let's look at what these two, completely different things, are in the game.
Keen: a magical enhancement bonus added magicly to a magical weapon.
Improved crit: a feat, which tells me it is a result of many hours of training and practice. So it would fall into either an untyped bonus or a physical bonus. Which means by rule definition two different types of bonuses stack.
I do not see any problem with them stacking if you can see them as different types. Here is a break down of how I run it in my games:
Weapon A(kukri): 18,19,20/X2
Add keen: 15,16,17,18,19,20/X2
Add imp crit: 12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20/X2
Weapon B: 19,20/X2
Add keen: 17,18,19,20/X2
Add imp crit: 15,16,17,18,19,20/X2
Weapon C: 20/X2
Add keen: 19,20/X2
Add imp crit: 18,19,20/X2
This is meant to show all the numbers that will be a crit after every improvment/feat. Each thing only doubles the base weapon only, not the base weapon plus previous improvment. I also run it as a natural 20 never requires a confirmation roll but anything less does. This does add a bit of power to the game, however, it isn't hard to make things work as a GM. I find it adds more flavor and excitement to the story as well.
What is everyone elses take on this? Keep in mind the "rules" specify the rules are there to aid and are not law and everything is open for change if the GM wishes.
Naah.
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They don't not stack because they accidentally happened to have the same bonus type, they don't stack for balance reasons.
Balance being the issue I might suggest homebrewing a more expensive version of Keen, say a +3 Greater Keen ability that stacks with improved crit, or a "Keen Critial" feat that requires improved crit, critical focus, and a suitably high bab, to get them to stack.
They don't not stack because they accidentally happened to have the same bopnus type, they don't stack for balance reasons.
Its this
If they stacked 12+ crits would be a thing and with critical feats, class features and enchantments that trigger off crits, rapier and scimitar would be the only weapons used.
That is exactly how it used to work back in third. A doubled double is a triple, and so on. That was also back in the day when the vorpal enchantment triggered on any critical hit. So the ranger with a pair of + 1 keen vorpal kukris of speed was a serious problem.
Sean K Reynolds blogged a defense of improved crit stacking with keen back when D&D 3.5 originally nixed it (they did stack in D&D 3.0). And mathematically, there may not be much wrong with allowing it.
The problem is in play. Does anyone really want to have to roll a confirmation whenever the fighter with a keen falchion and improved crit rolls a hit on 12 or better? Stacking the two felt wrong even if the math wasn't bad. It slowed things down even more.
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Quixote you forgot "of wounding" ... :P
+1 keen (+1) vorpal (+5) of speed (+3) = already at a +10. Plus, I can't really see hoe wounding helps.
The problem is in play. Does anyone really want to have to roll a confirmation whenever the fighter with a keen falchion and improved crit rolls a hit on 12 or better? Stacking the two felt wrong even if the math wasn't bad. It slowed things down even more.
That makes a strange amount of sense.
The problem is in play. Does anyone really want to have to roll a confirmation whenever the fighter with a keen falchion and improved crit rolls a hit on 12 or better? Stacking the two felt wrong even if the math wasn't bad. It slowed things down even more.
I think about the confirmation rolls of the ranger with the pair of +1 keen vorpal kukris of speed. The only reason why he avoided teammates looking into immediate action attacks that did friendly fire was because the vorpal would kick in early on.
Very interesting input.....I'm considering removing vorpal or making it insane to get.
Very interesting input.....I'm considering removing vorpal or making it insane to get.
Or how about making it a bane style effect, where it targets only specific creature types. That could be useful for narrative moments without having to worry about what to do with the overpowered weapon later on.
Very interesting input.....I'm considering removing vorpal or making it insane to get.
It's already insane to get. A +1 Vorpal weapon costs 72000gp, and you need a natural 20 to trigger it (plus a successful confirmation roll). By the time you get this there's a good chance you'll be 1-shotting a lot of enemies anyway, and if the occasional boss gets shut down early that can just be a cinematic moment for your fighter ("Snicker-Snack!").
For the same price you could buy a +5 weapon with your favourite "+1 enchantment". This will have a +4to hit vs the vorpal sword and deal more damage as well. If you're smart about your enchantment that can get even better (Furious?)
Very interesting input.....I'm considering removing vorpal or making it insane to get.It's already insane to get. A +1 Vorpal weapon costs 72000gp, and you need a natural 20 to trigger it (plus a successful confirmation roll). By the time you get this there's a good chance you'll be 1-shotting a lot of enemies anyway, and if the occasional boss gets shut down early that can just be a cinematic moment for your fighter ("Snicker-Snack!").
For the same price you could buy a +5 weapon with your favourite "+1 enchantment". This will have a +4to hit vs the vorpal sword and deal more damage as well. If you're smart about your enchantment that can get even better (Furious?)
Interesting.....I was thinking of just a level 20 requirement for vorpal. Or maybe it's so rare that if they really want to....library intrigue of 20 or so dragon libraries
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If Keen and Improved Critical stacked, my party might have ended up hating me. My hunter has a build based on AoOs from crits. Her scimitar crit on a 15 and I rolled crits a LOT thanks to that. And with Outflank, Combat Reflexes, and Paired Opportunists, my hunter and animal companion could get off 4 AoOs a round. (And that was just the boar, the hunter could get another two thanks to a higher dex.) If I was critting on just a 12, those AoOs would have been never ending.
Interesting.....I was thinking of just a level 20 requirement for vorpal. Or maybe it's so rare that if they really want to....library intrigue of 20 or so dragon librariesVery interesting input.....I'm considering removing vorpal or making it insane to get.It's already insane to get. A +1 Vorpal weapon costs 72000gp ...
For the same price you could buy a +5 weapon with your favourite "+1 enchantment".
I honestly wouldn't worry. As I said, a Vorpal weapon is ~72300gp, and it only has an effect if you were already going to confirm a crit. Or you chould just buy a +1 SCYTHE for 2318gp (approx. 1/31 of the cost) and have the same effect.
Back to the idea of "Keen + Improved-Critical", what would it add to the game? I imagine every magus player loves the idea but otherwise you 're not doing much except encouraging everyone to take these options. If that's something you want to do then great, if not then don't do it.
PS: yep, they changed it from con loss to bleed. Very different things. Greater 2 weapon fighting with a pair of wounding weapons could end up with a rather insane Con loss per round.
Indeed, that 3.5 version of wounding (3.0 involved something more like bleed) was pretty harsh. Brutal even. Probably worth a +1 over and above any version that just does bleed.
The alternative is to go in the other dimension. Instead of increasing the threat range, increase the multiplier across the original threat range. So a keen IC longsword would be 17-18/x2 & 19-20/x3, a keen IC battleaxe 19/x3 & 20/x4 and a keen IC scimitar 15-17/x2 & 18-20/x3.
This does the same damage as adding to the threat range, but doesn't need any more confirmation rolls and doesn't mean extra rider effects from Stunning(etc) Critical or the feat (I forget the name) that lets you pass crits off to the barbarian with the scythe.