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This is something I pointed out back in the playtest so I'm pretty disappointed to see it's still a problem in the final version. To clarify, the Noble background (which allows you to pick charisma or intelligence) is made up entirely of benefits that are only good for intelligence characters.
You get training in Society, an Int-based skill; this by itself would be fine, as despite the lack of synergy with charisma it is a skill you want anyways so you can know things about the nobility. What is significantly less fine is the Courtly Graces feat, who's benefit is replacing two charisma skills in certain scenarios. If you planned on training Diplomacy and Deception anyways, Courtly Graces does nothing. Even worse that the Deception benefit is only for if you aren't actually a Noble. A character with this background doesn't need to lie about it!
I think that as it stands, if I were to make a charismatic noble I'd select Martial Disciple or Emissary for my background, the former giving Just Good Benefits to any martial character and the latter offering legitimate advantages to characters who want to be good at talking. Frankly Courtly Graces is just a bad feat and should be changed to something more generally useful for courtly characters.
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For Courtly Graces I'd say that a noble can still impersonate with Society for the nobility of another nation.
But hey, maybe you wanted to be a Noble Sorcerer or Bard. Charisma is still pretty useful then, even if you do spend proficiencies in the social skills.
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Like I said, if you want to be a noble Bard you're better off with the Emissary background. You get training in Society and a feat that actually does something for you.
Like I said, if you want to be a noble Bard you're better off with the Emissary background. You get training in Society and a feat that actually does something for you.
Gambler and merchant can work: Gambler for your more black sheep type noble and Merchant for your 'new to nobility' noble. Both work much better than the actual noble does. ;)
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I have to say "the Nobility is useless" is pretty appropriate, actually
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Unless you are playing a high int character with a charisma main stat. Or you are multi classing at some point or you want int and cha as well as to be a Noble?
Saying this is a trap is wayyyyyyyy over stating it.
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Shocker! A character with high intelligence gets value out of this background. Congratulations on identifying the initial premise of my post; that is, the fact that Noble is only good for intelligent nobles, and those who are highly charismatic but not particularly intelligent get nothing useful from the background.
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1) Noble Background gives one free ability boost. You could choose INT.
2) Courtly Graces is a prerequisite for Connections. Would be super useful for a noble.
3) You can start as a human and get two free ability boosts in... INT and CHA or use those to round out a different concept.
4) Historically nobles weren't bards;
Sorcerer could be a solid option with all the bloodlines stuff. Would fit in with nobles' fascination with genealogy. The CHA boosts would be useful there.
A Noble Rogue Scoundrel would be a good synergy, especially for the "black sheep" type.
From a purely medieval point of view, male nobles would likely be fighters (or champions...). In fantasy we can turn that concept on its ear and speculate that female nobles would also pursue martial prowess. You could be a human boosting STR and DEX, then a noble boosting INT and CHA. A well rounded fighter who also has the juice to be more than a armored killing machine.
Of course, many of these options would have to favor your back-story and a character concept that is more than simple math and optimization. YMMV of course.
Unless you are playing a high int character with a charisma main stat. Or you are multi classing at some point or you want int and cha as well as to be a Noble?
Saying this is a trap is wayyyyyyyy over stating it.
Those seem quite unlikely as high in two mental stats means low in physical stats and those affect AC [dex or bulk], hp, 2 saves, ect.
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If this is what passes for a trap option in 2nd edition, I'm feeling real good about 2nd edition.
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It's probably not perfect for min-maxing but it's not a trap option in the way that some things in PF1 where, and overall, as long as one of the options for stat boosts is reasonable for your character concept, not choosing an "optimal" background isn't going to be that bad in the long run. It's not like in PF1 where there where straight up pit traps you could fall into and never escape, it's more likely a non-optimal choice.
Edit: Ninja'd by Albatoonoe
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Also can’t you still use diplomacy and deception against non nobles?
There is probably some weird logic where knowing etiquette can be more important than certain charm and bravado amongst nobles even if you are one . Depends on the type of Noble you are dealing with
“Trap” is going a bit far for the reasons others have said - charisma may be useful to you for other reasons, it is a per-req and you have other bonuses to add to other stats
If you are playing a zero sum game of trying to weight up the optimisation of every single background then sure it doesn’t seen as strong as others . But it is thematic and if someone wanted a foppish Noble as their character rather than a studious one or anything else then for the sake of a under par skill feat this is probably not bad
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It's a solid choice if you want Society and eventually want Connections, a really good Feat for social characters even if it is based on Society, and one there are no Cha based equivalents for.
So going with it and taking Int is always good, going with it and taking Cha is good if you have reasons to want Cha and eventually want Connections even if Courtly Graces itself can wind up a bit of a speed bump in that case.
I wouldn't call that a trap at all. It's not even suboptimal in the right sort of game.
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Eh. I'm kind of in Aranchofiend's camp here. I don't know that I would call it a trap but it leaves something to be desired. Like, it isn't an awful trap to fall in or anything, but something that comes attached to a background should be useful to a character regardless of their stat choice. I tweaked the feat back in the playtest as such:
COURTLY GRACES FEAT 1
Prerequisites trained in Society
You either were raised among the nobility or have learned proper etiquette and bearing and can use your knowledge to carry you through social interactions. You may use your Genealogy Lore, Heraldry Lore, or Society score when rolling Diplomacy checks against targets of society’s upper echelon, as determined by your GM. Should you choose to use Diplomacy instead, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the check.
Special You may apply this feat against ancestries or ethnicities you select through the Cultural Familiarity general feat, regardless of their social status.
That makes it do the stat replacement thing for intelligent nobles (and helps prevent the feat from invalidating their lore skill if they decide to invest in it) while still giving an advantage to a noble who is actually charismatic.
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Connections is actually a good feat, though it does annoy me that it's existence effectively means that charismatic-but-not-particularly-intelligent nobles are objectively worse at building political alliances than a noble who is intelligent-but-not-particularly-charismatic. I'd be much happier with Morgan's version of Courtly Graces.
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Eh. It's not entirely efficient, but actually many backgrounds aren't too efficient. Some of the skill feats you can get seem much better than others. Overall I think if 2/3 things you get from a background are useful, then it's an acceptable pick.
It's possible though that Courtly Graces isn't all that bad. You can only maintain a high proficiency in a few skills; if you were planning to keep Society and Diplomacy high for example, you could use Courtly Graces when you need to pretend to be a different noble, as it might give you a higher proficiency than your proficiency in Deception.
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Connections is actually a good feat, though it does annoy me that it's existence effectively means that charismatic-but-not-particularly-intelligent nobles are objectively worse at building political alliances than a noble who is intelligent-but-not-particularly-charismatic. I'd be much happier with Morgan's version of Courtly Graces.Makes sense to me. Building a network isn’t necessarily a Charisma thing - I see this as an application of Intelligence in that you are leveraging political resources in a strategic fashion to derive benefit. Frankly, a lot of politicians really hate each other in personal interaction, but if they take a mental accounting of the costs/benefit of a political arrangement they will take the action that provides the most benefit regardless of whether or not they actually like the person they’re working with even if they’re currently not swayed by the attempts to woo them with charisma. I think being susceptible to charm actually makes you a less attractive connection. Who would you rather work with - a contact that will make a move based on mutual benefit and isn’t easily swayed by charms or cons, or a potential ally whose fancies drift at the first blush of a courtesan?
I hope you realize that all you're doing here is arguing my point that the Noble background isn't beneficial to charisma characters.
That being said... you're wrong. History is full of politicians who were capable of amassing a legion of allies and followers through sheer charisma despite honestly being quite stupid.
So, if I am reading it correctly, "Courtly Graces" is a feat tax to get to "Connections."
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If you want to play a noble character without Diplomacy, it's fine.
I have a fighter idea in mind who plans for lots of Intimidation and no Diplomacy - being able to gather info via Society seems just fine to me.
We live in a society.
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So, if I am reading it correctly, "Courtly Graces" is a feat tax to get to "Connections."
Only if you're a high Charisma character with Diplomacy and Deception both Trained or higher. It's great on its own for Int-based characters or those without those Skills Trained.
Maybe... We just need another Background for "Conventionally attractive, non-Autistic, authentic (non-imposter) Noble"?
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I took great issue with this in the playtest as well. It is frustrating to see that Courtly Graces is more for alchemists and wizards than any actual Charisma-based characters.
I would like to express frustration over the fact that these two feats give relatively little benefit to middling-Intelligence, high-Charisma characters, and are much more beneficial to high-Intelligence, middling-Charisma characters. It is a bit of a bummer to, say, champions (who usually have to dump Intelligence and raise Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma) that alchemists and wizards (who usually dump Charisma and focus on Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Wisdom) make better nobles than them, and the Noble background is locked into Courtly Graces. Perhaps there should be a version of the Noble background without Courtly Graces.
Here's a funny joke for you: Fall of Plaguestone includes the "Lesser Scion" background, which is for a noble character who started adventuring because they're a second son or otherwise have no claim to inheritance. It gives Diplomacy as a class skill, Heraldry Lore, and the Hobnobber feat. Basically a perfect alternative!
What boosts does it give? Dexterity or Intelligence.
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Here's a funny joke for you: Fall of Plaguestone includes the "Lesser Scion" background, which is for a noble character who started adventuring because they're a second son or otherwise have no claim to inheritance. It gives Diplomacy as a class skill, Heraldry Lore, and the Hobnobber feat. Basically a perfect alternative!
What boosts does it give? Dexterity or Intelligence.
They need to dedicate that Background to you. /s
Skills are more weighted toward the proficiency bonus than the attribute bonus, anyway. Every rank of Proficiency is +2 and that bonus is only +1. I don't see picking Charisma (which doesn't even preclude you from picking Intelligence) as all that bad.
Edit: Also, with attribute ups being reduced to a 1 above 18, you'll close that gap with the character that started higher for many levels. Not to mention this isn't pvp, anyway.