Reading the description for daze, it sounds like it does automatic damage:
"You cloud the target's mind and daze it with a mental jolt. The jolt deals mental damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier; the target must attempt a basic WIll save. If the target critically fails the save, it is also stunned 1."
No attack roll, no save to reduce damage. Just a save for being stunned. Wow! This is going to be my go-to attack cantrip. The first level the damage is very consistent, which is appreciated at first level, and then it increases by 1d6 per level!
Am I missing something rule as written? Should I use it like it's going to be errataed? Or just lean into my enchanter being Mentok the Mind Taker?
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ashcroffte wrote: Reading the description for daze, it sounds like it does automatic damage:
"You cloud the target's mind and daze it with a mental jolt. The jolt deals mental damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier; the target must attempt a basic WIll save. If the target critically fails the save, it is also stunned 1."
No attack roll, no save to reduce damage. Just a save for being stunned. Wow! This is going to be my go-to attack cantrip. The first level the damage is very consistent, which is appreciated at first level, and then it increases by 1d6 per level!
Am I missing something rule as written? Should I use it like it's going to be errataed? Or just lean into my enchanter being Mentok the Mind Taker?
"the target must attempt a basic Will save". "basic save" is a shorthand for "success takes half, failure takes full, crit success takes 0, crit fail takes double"
Thanks. Still trying to figure out the shorthands. That makes a lot more sense. Still seems like a great cantrip, and the best daze in any edition.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ashcroffte wrote: Thanks. Still trying to figure out the shorthands. That makes a lot more sense. Still seems like a great cantrip, and the best daze in any edition. I'll take a saving throw based auto-hit vs. 'make an attack roll' just about any day of the week.
I agree this Daze is far superior especially with the scaling. No reason not to keep using this for most of your career. Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E).
Rerednaw wrote: Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E). Well, I feel like Feeblemind is a little bit of this. Stupefied 2 for a round on a SUCCESS. Just asking to get slapped with Will-based fight-enders immediately after.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Edge93 wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E). Well, I feel like Feeblemind is a little bit of this. Stupefied 2 for a round on a SUCCESS. Just asking to get slapped with Will-based fight-enders immediately after. You need a second caster to take advantage of the success effect, though, as both Feeblemind and anything fight-ending are both 2 actions.
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lordcirth wrote: Edge93 wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E). Well, I feel like Feeblemind is a little bit of this. Stupefied 2 for a round on a SUCCESS. Just asking to get slapped with Will-based fight-enders immediately after. You need a second caster to take advantage of the success effect, though, as both Feeblemind and anything fight-ending are both 2 actions. Quicken Spell lets you do it on your own once per day.
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lordcirth wrote: Edge93 wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E). Well, I feel like Feeblemind is a little bit of this. Stupefied 2 for a round on a SUCCESS. Just asking to get slapped with Will-based fight-enders immediately after. You need a second caster to take advantage of the success effect, though, as both Feeblemind and anything fight-ending are both 2 actions. The ‘Scare to Death’ skill feat is a single action which can end a fight, and benefit from the foe being Stupefied, at least to getting you to the critical success, possibly kill the thing effect. Now it will not help with the subsequent Fort save, however even if it makes it, its Frightened 2 (giving it a -2 on basically everything, and a total of -4 on Will, making it easy pickings for any other Will save ability by teammates) and as to flee for the round, giving a good opening for everyone to attack, with the free push possibly killing the thing anyways.
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Siro wrote: lordcirth wrote: Edge93 wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E). Well, I feel like Feeblemind is a little bit of this. Stupefied 2 for a round on a SUCCESS. Just asking to get slapped with Will-based fight-enders immediately after. You need a second caster to take advantage of the success effect, though, as both Feeblemind and anything fight-ending are both 2 actions. The ‘Scare to Death’ skill feat is a single action which can end a fight, and benefit from the foe being Stupefied, at least to getting you to the critical success, possibly kill the thing effect. Now it will not help with the subsequent Fort save, however even if it makes it, its Frightened 2 (giving it a -2 on basically everything, and a total of -4 on Will, making it easy pickings for any other Will save ability by teammates) and as to flee for the round, giving a good opening for everyone to attack, with the free push possibly killing the thing anyways. Frightened and Stupefied don’t stack to -4 because they’re both status penalties. Basically no condition penalties stack, but the limited ones are usually easier to inflict even on a successful save, last longer, or have a higher value than comparable universal rebuffs that give Frightened or Sick.
Xenocrat wrote: Siro wrote: lordcirth wrote: Edge93 wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E). Well, I feel like Feeblemind is a little bit of this. Stupefied 2 for a round on a SUCCESS. Just asking to get slapped with Will-based fight-enders immediately after. You need a second caster to take advantage of the success effect, though, as both Feeblemind and anything fight-ending are both 2 actions. The ‘Scare to Death’ skill feat is a single action which can end a fight, and benefit from the foe being Stupefied, at least to getting you to the critical success, possibly kill the thing effect. Now it will not help with the subsequent Fort save, however even if it makes it, its Frightened 2 (giving it a -2 on basically everything, and a total of -4 on Will, making it easy pickings for any other Will save ability by teammates) and as to flee for the round, giving a good opening for everyone to attack, with the free push possibly killing the thing anyways. Frightened and Stupefied don’t stack to -4 because they’re both status penalties. Basically no condition penalties stack, but the limited ones are usually easier to inflict even on a successful save, last longer, or have a higher value than comparable universal rebuffs that give Frightened or Sick. You know what, rereading the statues rules, you are right, thanks. (Still getting my head around a couple of the finer points of conditions, for some reason I originally thought each condition was its own unique statues penalty.) Meh, I’ve never claimed to have a Int score above 6 :)
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