Orange War Paint reads:
Display this card next to your deck. While displayed, when you would bury a card to use a character power that adds to your Melee check, you may discard that card instead. When you fail a combat check or play another card that has the Paint trait, bury this card; if you have the Melee skill, discard it instead.
Grenek has a powerfeat that reads:
On your Strength check or your check against
a monster, you may bury a random card from
your discards (□ or the top card of your deck)
to add your Fortitude.
My question is, if Orange War Paint is displayed and Grenek uses his rage ability for a melee STR combat check, does that work to prevent the card from being discarded?
Few reasons i think this might work:
• The card is not being played, so it does not have to come from your hand.
• The power does not specify where the card comes from, only that it would be buried as a result to a character power that adds to a melee check
Few reasons I think this might not work:
Rulebook reads:
If you are instructed to play, reveal, display, reload, discard, recharge,
bury, banish, or otherwise manipulate a card, that card must come from
your hand unless you are activating a power on a displayed card, in
which case you activate it with the displayed card instead.
• So I understand normally the card would have to come from my hand but here it tells me that i'm activating a power on a displayed card so I think that still works, but maybe not? But maybe I'm parsing this incorrectly and this is why I cannot discard the rage card instead.
• It seems kind of silly to be able to discard a card from your discard "instead" of burying it, but discard is just defined as "Put a card faceup in your discards." Can you "Put" a card where it already is?Mostly looking for why this shouldn't work, because I can't seem to find the justification for why it can't other than you maybe can't discard a card already in your discard.
Thanks!
Humm! Interesting.
I would say it would work but I have no real rules basis to support it.
So costly power action
Interested in seeing what others think
Woops, made a typo:
My question is, if Orange War Paint is displayed and Grenek uses his rage ability for a melee STR combat check, does that work to prevent the card from being discarded buried?
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I agree; great question. I can confidently answer a part of it, however!
The FAQ that was a result of a long discussion about one of Zadim's powers effectively confirms that these kinds of powers affect cards that are being discarded/buried/recharged/etc from zones other than your hand.
For reference, this is the Zadim power in question, of which entirely exists to replace the "bury the top card of your deck" side-effects of most old weapon poisons with a recharge.
□ When an item that has the Poison trait requires you to banish or bury a card, you may discard (□ or recharge) it instead.
So that confirms that a card being buried from a non-hand zone will be caught by the War Paint.
That means the only remaining question is "can you discard a card that is in your discards"? I would argue that you cannot do so, because there's no "manipulation" of a card taking place - a very specific term used in the rulebook quote from your original post that, in the context of the paragraph, implied that you have to do something with a card when instructed to do so.
It's worth noting that if "discard a card in your discards" is an impossible instruction (which I argue it is), then you may not choose to take it as an option, see the Core Rulebook, page 11.
[...]
* If you are presented with two or more options, none of which require a check, you may choose any of those options.You may not choose an impossible option unless you have no other choice.
In short; my opinion is that you cannot discard a card in your discards, but I don't know if that can be objectively supported solely from the RAW. It doesn't tend to come up often! Nevertheless, War Paint will certainly catch cards that would be buried from any zone, hypothetically, not just your hand.
I think it's reasonable to call that an impossible instruction. In my sleep-deprived convention brain I hadn't considered that. Thanks!
I still think it'd be a great card for Grenek though since, with a power feat, he could discard a card from top of his deck to rage, and then bury that card later to rage again. Effectively doubles the number of times he could rage combat checks as long as he doesn't mind taking it from the top deck--which shouldn't be too much of a deal since he can cycle his deck enough to know the order of his entire deck after a few turns.
I don't see any reason why Grenek with Orange War Paint displayed can't discard a card from his discards to add his Fortitude to his Melee check.
While I completely agree that this is the case by RAW, there's a chance intent is NOT for Grenek to be able to add Fortitude to all of his combat for free with a single displayed card.
Cool now Hakon can do the same with his Diplomacy ?
And not only for him but to helps every local check against a monster ?
On a local Strength check (☐ or a local check against a monster), you may bury a card from your hand (☐ or discards) to add your Diplomacy.
Seems a bit game killing no ?
I mean in our game I'm traveling with Ezren, Valeros, Fumbus, Lem and Hakon... 3 or 4 dice pretty much "for free" on any local combat check ?
With that I can answer Mike's statement during Gen Con : Legendary ? Easy!
Cool now Hakon can do the same with his Diplomacy ?
And not only for him but to helps every local check against a monster ?On a local Strength check (☐ or a local check against a monster), you may bury a card from your hand (☐ or discards) to add your Diplomacy.Seems a bit game killing no ?
I mean in our game I'm traveling with Ezren, Valeros, Fumbus, Lem and Hakon... 3 or 4 dice pretty much "for free" on any local combat check ?
With that I can answer Mike's statement during Gen Con : Legendary ? Easy!
Well, keep in mind Orange War Paint only works when the power is used to add to your Melee check. So Hakon can't give anyone else his Diplomacy "for free" by discarding a card in his discard. He could only use the Orange War Paint on his own Melee check.
It seems like a strong card for both Hakon and Grenek. Too strong? I'm not sure. Will have to test it out. My initial reaction is that it is a bit too simple of a combination to get a free 1d8+X on every combat check with little to no downside.
Amiri (Core) too; she also can bury a card from her discards for the same outcome.
Remember that Orange War Paint is an Item 1 (or is it Item 2?) in the Barbarian Class Deck, with the same text; so this significantly effects Grenek and Amiri in PACS, I would argue. An auto-include for certain ("display to add +1d8+1+X to all of your combat checks, and local melee checks, until you fail a combat check", basically).
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I won't be able to make any new FAQ entries this week, but we'll change Orange War Paint to "when you would bury a card from your hand."
This is a terrible fix, as the card seems fairly obvious in its intent to help with "bury from top of your deck" powers (which are a very Barbarian-y thing) and it's a ridiculous nerf if its only purpose is to avoid Grenek's offending power. Please consider expanding it to "when you would bury a card from your hand or deck" at least.
I won't be able to make any new FAQ entries this week, but we'll change Orange War Paint to "when you would bury a card from your hand."This is a terrible fix, as the card seems fairly obvious in its intent to help with "bury from top of your deck" powers (which are a very Barbarian-y thing) and it's a ridiculous nerf if its only purpose is to avoid Grenek's offending power. Please consider expanding it to "when you would bury a card from your hand or deck" at least.
I'm torn.
On one hand the card was designed with barbarians who initially would bury(now discard) cards from their hand to rage. Grenek OTOH has the power feat that lets him bury(now discard) a card from top of his deck to rage on a combat check with orange war paint. Once it's in his discard he can forget orange war paint and use his regular rage to bury a card from his discard. Effectively getting two rages from one card if he's able to activate one rage from top of his deck with orange war paint. BUT if we update Orange war paint to only activate from hand then the card is useless for him completely, which seems a bit unfair but perhaps not once we consider how ridiculous his rage gets with roles and how he gets very good mileage out of Orange War Paint compared to other barbarians.
Looking at it from the perspective of what's broken though, being able to put a card from your discard into your discard is where the problem is at, and seems to be a bit overkill to restrict Orange War Paint to only activating from cards in hand. And I'd argue Grenek's rage is on par with Core Amiri's rage...and Core amiri's rage isn't going to get butchered by the proposed FAQ of only activating if the card came from hand.
IOW. I think I agree that it should be "Hand or deck"
Which is the same solution applied to Zadim recharging cards instead of burying them to poisons.
(Another reminder that FAQ hasn't been applied to Olenjack yet, who can get access to Tears of Death in PACS now thanks to Ultimate Equipment.)
"Hand or deck" seems reasonable.