Can a Slayer take the favored class bonus of 1/6 of a talent from level 1 through 6 and gain an extra Ranger combat style feat at level 6?
My thought is that in that specific instance the answer should be yes.
I think technicly no, but it wouldn't really hurt to say yes.
EDIT: I totally misread the question.
LordKailas is correct, you can select any talent available to you with your bonus talent from your FCB.
What I was referring to is that (as far as I remember) you can't take any "Extra X" options (feats/FCB/etc) unless you already have "X". This would mean you can't take "Extra Talent" options until you have a talent - which happens at level 2. Instead of getting your bonus Ranger feat at 6/12/18 you'd get it at 7/13/19.
If you're just asking: "Can this extra talent be spent on this specific talent?" then the answer is yes.
It depends on what you mean by "extra". If a slayer takes the 1/6 talent FCB for levels 1-6 then at level 6 they gain an additional talent. This talent can then be spent on any talent normally available to them at level 6. The same talent can not be selected multiple times unless otherwise stated. The Ranger combat talent states that from levels 1-5 you can take it once, from levels 6-9 it can be taken twice and a levels 10+ it can be selected 3 times.
The fact that you have an additional talent to spend has no impact on how many times the ranger combat style talent can be taken.
Actually I think it says that at 2nd, 6th and 10th you can take a Ranger style feat, adding to the list of available feats at those levels.
To amend my question, could one also take the FCB from 5th through 10th and take an extra at 10th level?
so, to be clear this is the ability I'm looking at.
Benefit: The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.
So, you can spend 3 talents to gain this talent 3 times. Each time it grants you a bonus feat from the Ranger combat style.
So, for example, lets say you chose archery
from levels 1-5 you can spend a talent to gain any one of the following feats as a bonus feat :Far Shot, Focused Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, or Rapid Shot.
from levels 6-9 you can spend a talent to gain any one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Far Shot, Focused Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery, Improved Precise Shot, Parting Shot, Point Blank Master or Manyshot
from levels 10+ you can spend a talent to gain any one of the following feats from the list. Far Shot, Focused Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery, Improved Precise Shot, Parting Shot, Point Blank Master, Manyshot, Pinpoint Targeting or Shot on the Run.
You can take this talent a maximum of 3 times.
Again, the bonus talents gained from the slayer FCB can be spent on any talent you qualify for. It does not alter how many times you can take the same talent. It doesn't matter if you have 1 bonus talent or 3 bonus talents from it.
What I do not see is any statement in the rules that they can only take that option 3 times. Only that it must be at the specific levels, 2nd, 6th and 10th. If the character can take 2 talents at a given level, why not?
That seems like a very strict interpretation which would simultaneously be highly exploitable and restrictive.
To start with, if you could only take it again at 6th and 10th level. It would have the following effects:
1. If you miss taking it again at 6th and 10th level then you're just sol and can only take it once.
2. If you take it levels other then 6th and 10th then you can only pick feats from the initial list.
3. If you retrain your talents and/or feats at 10th level you could easily take it 10 times. Since the retaining rules let you take abilities you currently qualify for regardless of when the talents or feats were gained.
Because I don't believe any of these scenarios is intended the logical choice is that these options become available once you hit 6th and 10th level, not that they are only available at 6th and 10th level.
The language could have been better, but most requirements are inclusive.
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r95
Prestige Class Requirements: If a prestige class requires 5 ranks in a skill and I have 6 ranks in that skill, do I still meet the requirements?
Yes, because skill ranks are inclusive: if you have 6 ranks in a skill, then you have 5 ranks in that skill, and therefore meet the "have 5 ranks in [this] skill" requirement.In the same way, if you have a BAB of +6, then you have a BAB of +5, and therefore meet the "have BAB +5" requirement.
In the same way, if you have Str 15, then you have Str 13, and therefore meet the "Str 13" feat prerequisite for Power Attack.
Feat prerequisites are not inclusive, as it is possible for a creature to have a feat without meeting that feat's prerequisites. For example, a ranger can select Precise Shot as a ranger bonus feat without having the Point Blank Shot feat; he does not meet the prerequisites for Far Shot (which has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite) because he doesn't actually have the Point Blank Shot feat, even though he has a feat that lists Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite.
What I was referring to is that (as far as I remember) you can't take any "Extra X" options (feats/FCB/etc) unless you already have "X". This would mean you can't take "Extra Talent" options until you have a talent - which happens at level 2. Instead of getting your bonus Ranger feat at 6/12/18 you'd get it at 7/13/19.
Even that is sketchy. Because that language is written about options that modify an ability, like increasing the effective level of a class ability. But this FCB merely gives you a talent, which doesn't really modify a class ability.
That seems like a very strict interpretation which would simultaneously be highly exploitable and restrictive.
To start with, if you could only take it again at 6th and 10th level. It would have the following effects:
1. If you miss taking it again at 6th and 10th level then you're just sol and can only take it once.
2. If you take it levels other then 6th and 10th then you can only pick feats from the initial list.
3. If you retrain your talents and/or feats at 10th level you could easily take it 10 times. Since the retaining rules let you take abilities you currently qualify for regardless of when the talents or feats were gained.Because I don't believe any of these scenarios is intended the logical choice is that these options become available once you hit 6th and 10th level, not that they are only available at 6th and 10th level.
[Regarding #1]: The way that I am reading the rules is that you can take Ranger Style Feats only at 2nd, 6th and 10th level. Not at any interim or subsequent levels. But with that FCB, I don't read anything saying that you can't take a Style feat with the bonus talent if you take it at 6th or 10th level.
[Re #2]: I am not sure that I follow your reasoning on that, see above.[Re #3]: I don't see how one could retrain something that is gained at a specific level when the character already passed that level. In other words, I think retraining them is nearly a moot point. You can't unless you are trading them for other style feats that could have been taken at the same level(s).
"Starting at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a slayer gains one slayer talent. Unless otherwise noted, a slayer cannot select an individual talent more than once."
Yes, duly noted. Also duly noted that the Slayer can select this talent (Ranger Combat Style) more than once. Do I think that I have found a loophole? Yes I do. A loophole large enough to get one extra, just one, Ranger Combat Style feat.
[Regarding #1]: The way that I am reading the rules is that you can take Ranger Style Feats only at 2nd, 6th and 10th level. Not at any interim or subsequent levels.
why not 4th level? slayers get a talent at 4th level and if you spent the talent you got at 2nd level on say tracking. What stops you from taking the ranger combat style talent at 4th?
[Re #3]: I don't see how one could retrain something that is gained at a specific level when the character already passed that level. In other words, I think retraining them is nearly a moot point. You can't unless you are trading them for other style feats that could have been taken at the same level(s).
So, lets say you are 10th level. A normal 10th level character has 5 feats. There is a feat called extra slayer talent that gives you an extra slayer talent that you currently qualify for. As per retraining you could convert all 5 feats into slayer talents you qualify for as a 10th level character.
Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn’t qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?
Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.
As for the talents, the magic item shifting jerkin lets you retrain talents on a permanent basis to any talent you currently qualify for.
so all together you would net 10 slayer talents at 10th level that you can spend on anything you can take at 10th level.
Can a Slayer take the favored class bonus of 1/6 of a talent from level 1 through 6 and gain an extra Ranger combat style feat at level 6?
My thought is that in that specific instance the answer should be yes.
There is a point that I think everyone has missed: Since your FCB can only be added to class features that you have, you can't start taking the FCB for extra slayer talents until 2nd level, when you actually get your 1st slayer talent and thus the slayer talent class feature. That would give you your first extra slayer talent at 7th level.
Can a Slayer take the favored class bonus of 1/6 of a talent from level 1 through 6 and gain an extra Ranger combat style feat at level 6?
My thought is that in that specific instance the answer should be yes.
There is a point that I think everyone has missed: Since your FCB can only be added to class features that you have, you can't start taking the FCB for extra slayer talents until 2nd level, when you actually get your 1st slayer talent and thus the slayer talent class feature. That would give you your first extra slayer talent at 7th level.
I don't think that I missed that point. I don't know what your source is, but I have never read anything like that.
But anyway, I have decided to allow it. I believe my reasoning (see above) is sound. I will deal with the retraining issue as I outlined above, if it ever comes up.
As for that Shifting Jerkin mentioned above: No. Not in my game, nor would I ever ask a GM to allow it. A magic item that grants a benefit equal to 1000gp x character level each and every day for less than 6000gp? Made using only a 2nd level and a 1st level spell? Somebody should errata that to a power that lasts for a day, but in the meantime, no.
Thanks everyone for your input! I have to go apply some templates to some Kaiju....
I thought it was in the Help/FAQ section, but here is the only citation I could find.
Given the source, it would be binding in a PFS game but not outside of PFS, unless this item is repeated somewhere in the Help/FAQ section that I missed.
Gaining a slayer talent isn’t increasing the effective level of anything, so that doesn’t really apply.
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I thought it was in the Help/FAQ section, but here is the only citation I could find.
Given the source, it would be binding in a PFS game but not outside of PFS, unless this item is repeated somewhere in the Help/FAQ section that I missed.
The link you sent didn't convince me since it references FCB that apply to specific abilities. The FAQ in that light amounted to, "you can't get a bonus to fireball unless you can cast fireball". However, the comment underneath stating that this wasn't a new rule caused me to do some additional research.
It seems you are correct, as this appears in occult adventures
If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be high enough to add a bonus until a later level.
You are absolutely correct. You wouldn't be able to take the FCB that grants you an extra talent until 2nd level. Meaning it won't add up to an extra talent until 7th level.
edit: I just noticed it says modifies a class feature or ability. I'm not sure if getting an extra talent qualifies as modifying.
The class feature is Slayer Talent, which you gain at 2nd level.
I do recall seeing somewhere some discussion about when characters with archetypes that replace some instances of class features can take options that have those class features as prerequisites (such as the Extra X feats). For something like slayer talents, an archetype that replaces your second level slayer talent would cause you not to have that class feature until 4th level, but an archetype that requires you to take a particular slayer talent at 2nd level would still be granting you the Slayer Talent class feature at 2nd level. But there is no way that you would have that class feature at 1st level in any case.
I thought it was in the Help/FAQ section, but here is the only citation I could find.Given the source, it would be binding in a PFS game but not outside of PFS, unless this item is repeated somewhere in the Help/FAQ section that I missed.
Thanks for the link/info. I had never encountered that rule before, and I have to say: meh. Time for a house-ruling, and I will let my decision stand. Especially since the original example of Racial FCB in the Advanced Race Guide gave that Dwarf Rogue a bonus to a class ability at level 2 he didn't gain until level 3.
" For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue)."
As for the Occult Adventures citation, oh well. I understand later rules changes should take precedence, but I am not going to make a ruling against fun on the basis of a single sentence from a rule book that I otherwise use no material from.
The FCB change was basically a knee-jerk reaction to some extra powerful FCBs that got nerfed later on anyway. I’m not sure why they tried to pretend it was supposed to be that way all along though, when the original examples went against that ruling.
I always thought that the FCB's that gave extra spells known were the most powerful ones. Are there others that outclass that? After all, those are nearly equivalent to 1/2 of a feat (Expanded Arcana) each level.
There were oracle ones that would give you 1/2 of a level to a revelation. And there were revelations where that could get out of hand.
That seems OP to me. I don't get why the devs just didn't standardize the additional feat/talent/whatever into 1/x per level. That seems to make more sense to me than the variations that they ended up with.
I always thought that the FCB's that gave extra spells known were the most powerful ones. Are there others that outclass that? After all, those are nearly equivalent to 1/2 of a feat (Expanded Arcana) each level.
The Elf/Halfling FCB for Occultists (+ 1/2 a point of Mental Focus) is only 1/4 of a feat (Extra Mental Focus gives +2), but unlike other "Extra Class Feature" feats this one can only be take once. With Resonant Powers being a thing you can basically never have enough Mental Focus, so it seems almost mandatory.
I always thought that the FCB's that gave extra spells known were the most powerful ones. Are there others that outclass that? After all, those are nearly equivalent to 1/2 of a feat (Expanded Arcana) each level.The Elf/Halfling FCB for Occultists (+ 1/2 a point of Mental Focus) is only 1/4 of a feat (Extra Mental Focus gives +2), but unlike other "Extra Class Feature" feats this one can only be take once. With Resonant Powers being a thing you can basically never have enough Mental Focus, so it seems almost mandatory.
I will have to take your word for that one. I am just not familiar with Occult Adventures or the rules about that whole branch of magic.
That being said, I think that 1/4 of a feat/talent/feature is about right. Maybe if I do another PF1 campaign in the future, I will incorporate that. Probably as being available to everyone in some form or another.
I think that something needs to be done to balance all of the feat taxes baked into PF1.
Back on track,
Unless otherwise noted, a slayer cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Benefit: The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.
Prestige Class Requirements: If a prestige class requires 5 ranks in a skill and I have 6 ranks in that skill, do I still meet the requirements?
Yes, because skill ranks are inclusive: if you have 6 ranks in a skill, then you have 5 ranks in that skill, and therefore meet the "have 5 ranks in [this] skill" requirement.
In the same way, if you have a BAB of +6, then you have a BAB of +5, and therefore meet the "have BAB +5" requirement.
In the same way, if you have Str 15, then you have Str 13, and therefore meet the "Str 13" feat prerequisite for Power Attack.
Feat prerequisites are not inclusive, as it is possible for a creature to have a feat without meeting that feat's prerequisites. For example, a ranger can select Precise Shot as a ranger bonus feat without having the Point Blank Shot feat; he does not meet the prerequisites for Far Shot (which has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite) because he doesn't actually have the Point Blank Shot feat, even though he has a feat that lists Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite.
Slayer talents say you cannot repeat a choice unless noted.
Ranger Combat Style allows you to select it up to three times, but gates how soon you can select it the second and third time.The FAQ means you can select the Ranger Combat Style anytime after you qualify. So you can select it with the 2nd 6th and 10th, or the 2nd 8th and 12th if you want.
/cevah
Back on track,
Unless otherwise noted, a slayer cannot select an individual talent more than once.Benefit: The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list....Prestige Class Requirements: If a prestige class requires 5 ranks in a skill and I have 6 ranks in that skill, do I still meet the requirements?
Yes, because skill ranks are inclusive: if you have 6 ranks in a skill, then you have 5 ranks in that skill, and therefore meet the "have 5 ranks in [this] skill" requirement.
In the same way, if you have a BAB of +6, then you have a BAB of +5, and therefore meet the "have BAB +5" requirement.
In the same way, if you have Str 15, then you have Str 13, and therefore meet the "Str 13" feat prerequisite for Power Attack.
Feat prerequisites are not inclusive, as it is possible for a creature to have a feat without meeting that feat's prerequisites. For example, a ranger can select Precise Shot as a ranger bonus feat without having the Point Blank Shot feat; he does not meet the prerequisites for Far Shot (which has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite) because he doesn't actually have the Point Blank Shot feat, even though he has a feat that lists Point Blank Shot as a
Slayer says that you can also select that talent at 6th and 10th level. Not, repeat, not, beginning at 6th and 10th. At 6th and 10th. And as far as I am concerned, the retcon from Occult Adventures isn't part of the game that I am running. And I am now seriously considering removing several "tax" type feats from prerequisites for various feats anyway, just to simplify the game.
And for the record, can this thread be closed? I have made my decision.