Bonus Skill Ranks

[Erpman]

Quick question,

Max skill ranks = character level

However, if you have an ability which grants "bonus skill ranks", would this allow you to go above your character level?

For example, the Totem Spiritualist, get's bonus skill ranks to Knowledge (Nature) equal to their animal companions HD. At lvl 1, this would be 2 HD, so... 2 bonus skill ranks.

Would you have 2 ranks in Knowledge Nature, at lvl 1? Or would it still be capped at 1, until you level up to lvl 2, at which point the bonus would move up to the full +2 bonus ranks.

[Derklord]

"You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice." CRB pg. 86

The rule isn't only work for assigning skill ranks, but applies to having skill ranks.

[Shinoskay]

Specific trumps general rule. If you have something that specifically says it gives bonus skill RANKS... it is an exception to the general rule.

[Themetricsystem]

The answer is no. No bonus can raise something above a defined maximum cap unless it specifically notes that it does so.

[Shinoskay]

since a lot of feats present they give bonus levels in something but specifically say they DONT raise the level of that thing/feature/mechanic above char level.

There is evidence of otherwise, Themet.

[Derklord]

Shinoskay wrote:

Specific trumps general rule. If you have something that specifically says it gives bonus skill RANKS... it is an exception to the general rule.

Not like that. It would be possible to override the general rule, but the language would need to actually refer to the cap.

[David knott 242]

If you are awarded bonus skill ranks but have a wide choice of skills in which to spend them, the rules about skill ranks being capped at character level would still apply.

If you are awarded bonus skill ranks in a specific skill (as happens with a Medium channeling the Trickster spirit, for exampe), the rules will invariably say what happens if these bonus ranks would exceed your character level. Usually, these ranks are lost.

[Java Man]

If they are bonus skill ranks that can exceed character level, why not just make it a bonus to the skill? Bam, no confusion, no rule debate. But they did not do that here, makes me think the level cap should be enforced.

[Erpman]

I think the main question I have with it though, is this is an ability you receive at class lvl 1.

Does this mean, if you take this class at level 1, you lose half of the benefit?

Would the bonus go to 2 once you achieve level 2? or is it lost?

[Claxon]

It's bonus skill ranks, still subject to the rules about skill ranks (in general) since it doesn't otherwise mention circumventing the cap.

So yes, it's lost at level 1. But when you level up to 2 you would have it.

This is why classes generally give bonuses to skill and not bonus skill ranks. It works basically the same, unless you want to take a feat that relies on having X number of ranks in a skill.

[Bill Dunn]

Claxon wrote:

This is why classes generally give bonuses to skill and not bonus skill ranks. It works basically the same, unless you want to take a feat that relies on having X number of ranks in a skill.

Bonus ranks also might come for a skill in which the character has invested no ranks. Gaining bonus ranks would allow them to make certain skill checks that require them to be trained. That's something just having a bonus to the skill wouldn't do.

[Claxon]

I guess that fair, on skills that require you have ranks invested to use them. Which is mostly the knowledge skills, to make more than a DC 10.

[LordKailas]

I think the ability has been poorly worded. If the purpose was just to allow you to use the skill untrained, then that should of been the benefit. I remember seeing an ability like that the other day (can't seem to find it now) where it gave you a bonus to a skill and allowed you to make checks with the skill untrained.

Maybe it's trying to emulate the effect a headband of vast intelligence grants. But the headband calls out that the ranks granted by the headband don't stack with any the character already has. For balance reasons a hard cap where the ranks you have in a skill can't exceed your character level should probably exist. In this way you can still put ranks into the skill if you want and you still get the bonus ranks, just the effective total can't exceed your character level.

[Shinoskay]

I disagree darklord, there are times where there is specific language that forces something to COMPLY with a cap... thus suggesting the cap is naturally overcome where it is not stated.

[Azothath]

Totem Spiritualist
Shared Instincts (Su): A totem spiritualist doesn’t gain Skill Focus feats while a phantom animal is confined in her consciousness. She instead gains a number of bonus ranks in Knowledge (nature) equal to the phantom animal’s Hit Dice.

so this is a temporary bonus as when the phantom manifests or is lost the bonus is lost. It's also exactly what it says from a RAW perspective.
An untyped bonus would have been cleaner, but reading the actual rule clarified what's going on.

[Shinoskay]

if you can maintain it for 24 hours, it counts as a permanent effect and counts towards requirements.