Hey guys, I haven't posted on here in quite a while so I hope i phrase this in a way that makes sense. So im building a two handed fighting Slayer, mostly because i don't like the feel of two weapon fighting and because i didn't want to play an archer this time around.
level 6 start (i have no idea how far we will be playing but i estimate to 15)
18 str
14 dex
12 con
10 int
10 wis
13 charisma (level 4 point goes here)
Both traits are filled
The idea for the character is to try to get sneak attacks with my greatsword of speed (not falcion because i wont be getting the crit feats) as often as physically possible, not only when im able to flank but by manipulating the enemies to help me constantly make them flatfooted so that im able to keep dishing out full round sneak attack damage. I have a vague idea of the feats I want to take and the slayer talents I want but im struggling at what order i should be taking these for the best value. Id like suggestions, currently it looks something like this for me:
1f: Intimidating prowess/power attack (human)
2: Trapfinding
3f: Weapon focus: greatsword
4: Fast stealth
5f: Dazzling display
6: Combat trick: Shatter defenses *Current level*
7f: Violent display
8: Unbalancing Trick
9f: Greater Trip (qualified for by unbalancing trick)
10 Evasion
11f: Improved initiative
12: Surprise attack
13f: Skill focus: stealth
14: Rogue advanced tallent: feat: Accomplished sneak attacker
15: Iron will
If we were to move past 15 id likely get either furious focus, quick draw (i have a longsword and morningstar as back up with a shield), and/or hammer the gap.
If you are thinking Slayer, have you considered the Bounty Hunter Archetype? They have a Class Ability that is almost as good as Quick Dirty Trick. You can use the Dirty Trick to make your opponent Blind and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage, and if you are up against an opponent with the Blind Fighting Feat or Blindsight, you can play a 2nd Dirty Trick and make them Deaf, too! That should reliably lock in your SAD for just about everybody.
So you are using a Greatsword. I don't really see anything that really takes advantage of Greatsowrd: you get attacks of opportunity through Tripping, that's about it. I'd want to see like Great Cleave and some Vital Strike feats. Can we think of some other ways to get some Attacks of Opportunity? The ones that come to mind involve dipping: how do you feel about that?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: If you are thinking Slayer, have you considered the Bounty Hunter Archetype? They have a Class Ability that is almost as good as Quick Dirty Trick. You can use the Dirty Trick to make your opponent Blind and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage, and if you are up against an opponent with the Blind Fighting Feat or Blindsight, you can play a 2nd Dirty Trick and make them Deaf, too! That should reliably lock in your SAD for just about everybody.
So you are using a Greatsword. I don't really see anything that really takes advantage of Greatsowrd: you get attacks of opportunity through Tripping, that's about it. I'd want to see like Great Cleave and some Vital Strike feats. Can we think of some other ways to get some Attacks of Opportunity? The ones that come to mind involve dipping: how do you feel about that?
Im not interested in vital strike because its a waste of feats. vital striking with sneak attack is not worth the assets. since you only get sneak attack dice for the one attack. sure you do get the highest bab for the one attack however, speed isnt usable with vital strike which means at 15 thats 3 less attacks than full attacking after making an enemy flat footed through any previous means like shatter defenses or by simply flanking them. The reason why i havnt switched to an archetype is because it makes the build slower to get going because the traded slayer talents, however i guess im not against checking out the bounty hunter to see if its worth trying. I don't want to multiclass in the least, slower sneak attack dice progression isnt worth the trouble.
So did take a look at the bounty hunter archetype but i cant think of any good reason to take it. You lose earlier slayer talents which are more important to me because i may not be able to play this character for a long time so abilities i can get sooner are better. Losing armor prof for me and not having room to get it back via a feat also makes this far less worth taking. The dirty trick almost looks interesting but if i can already get a sneak attack on them, i wouldnt be interested in using a dirty trick instead.....since id want dirty trick........to get more sneak attacks.
I'm a fan of the Gang Up method. It works even better for slayers than it does for rogues due to their increased survivability on the front line.
Edit: Nevermind, I see you dumped Int so that's out unless you score a headband or something.
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ViConstantine wrote: So did take a look at the bounty hunter archetype but i cant think of any good reason to take it. You lose earlier slayer talents which are more important to me because i may not be able to play this character for a long time so abilities i can get sooner are better. Losing armor prof for me and not having room to get it back via a feat also makes this far less worth taking. The dirty trick almost looks interesting but if i can already get a sneak attack on them, i wouldnt be interested in using a dirty trick instead.....since id want dirty trick........to get more sneak attacks. However, it is worth noting that i could trade the unbalanced trick for the ranger fighting style 1 underhanded so that i can take improved dirty trick at level 8 instead of improved trip and then get greater dirty trick at level 9
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blahpers wrote: I'm a fan of the Gang Up method. It works even better for slayers than it does for rogues due to their increased survivability on the front line.
Edit: Nevermind, I see you dumped Int so that's out unless you score a headband or something.
yea im afraid i didnt make any true dump stats because i wanted to be able to have a decent charisma for intimidate and diplomacy since im basically playing a happy and optimistic middle aged mom who decided to become an adventure after losing her daughter and husband. There is also very few uses for int to a slayer past even more skill points and the dc for assassinate though you cant even get it until level 16, though if i had a place to put it in, i would love gang up aha, ive used it before on slayers and think its great. Though im really just looking for a good placement for feats ive taken.
My advice for consistent sneak attack as a Slayer is... don't worry about it. The Slayer stays competitive because of Studied Target, you don't need to get sneak attack every round and can just see it as bonus damage you get on the occasion you have an opportunity to flank safely.
Since you're already going into charisma and taking Intimidating Prowess I think you'd get a lot more mileage out of the Cornugon Smash+Hurtful package than dumping a ton of feats into sneak attack.
Arachnofiend wrote: My advice for consistent sneak attack as a Slayer is... don't worry about it. The Slayer stays competitive because of Studied Target, you don't need to get sneak attack every round and can just see it as bonus damage you get on the occasion you have an opportunity to flank safely.
Since you're already going into charisma and taking Intimidating Prowess I think you'd get a lot more mileage out of the Cornugon Smash+Hurtful package than dumping a ton of feats into sneak attack.
hurtful package?
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If your GM uses maps with lots of details, like furniture, columns/pillars, tables, benches and cupboards then consider the feat Press to the Wall.
If you go up that feat chain dont forget step up and strike.
*Khan* wrote: If your GM uses maps with lots of details, like furniture, columns/pillars, tables, benches and cupboards then consider the feat Press to the Wall.
If you go up that feat chain dont forget step up and strike.
This isnt a character id likely take step up with or its feat chain, but press to the wall does seem like a really cool feat
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ViConstantine wrote: Arachnofiend wrote: Since you're already going into charisma and taking Intimidating Prowess I think you'd get a lot more mileage out of the Cornugon Smash+Hurtful package than dumping a ton of feats into sneak attack. hurtful package? Hurtful is a feat that allows you to get an extra attack in for a swift action after a target gets shaken (read: intimidated). It is often combined with cornugon smash (free action intimidate on a power attack) in order to get an extra hit in, even after a move+attack.
If your gm allows you to do this, you could take it further and get a cruel weapon (shaken targets hit with the weapon get nauseated) in order to give all sorts of debuffs in a single turn.
You’re already a full Bab martial with a greatsword, good strength, and a good way to add damage to your attacks through studied target. I honestly wouldn’t worry about getting sneak attack on everything.
But that being said, your Intimidate route is a pretty good way as is. You won’t get everyone, but you’ll have it work often enough most likely
You could take the human FCB to get some more slayer talents on there. And if you are investing in intimidate you might took at killing flourish and gruesome slaughter.
Grabbing as many will save bonuses as needed much earlier than level 15, because chances aren't small that otherwise, you won't be able to play your game due to constant debuffing/ability damage/etc. It's good to play on strengths, but not without covering weaknesses at the same time.
In that aspect that's why the 10 starting wisdom is a difficult look to me as the class has no ways to buff it properly. Also, 12 con and no Toughness, it's doable but the lack of HP will clearly hurt.
Outside of my own mindset though, how you project the character sounds pretty logic.
ViConstantine wrote: Im not interested in vital strike because its a waste of feats. vital striking with sneak attack is not worth the assets. since you only get sneak attack dice for the one attack. But you're using a greatsword! You are already sacrificing attacks/round! If you want to be maximizing damage from Sneak Attack, you should not use a Greatsword at all. You should be using 2 weapons at least, or best of all, Natural Attacks. Play a Tengu, and take Claws. Now, you have 3 Attacks/Round, and you are Level 1. You can get a 4th attack with a 1 level dip in White Haired Witch, a Hair Attack. You can get a Gore Attack with a magic item or a 2 level dip in Barbarian.
ViConstantine wrote: I don't want to multiclass in the least, slower sneak attack dice progression isn't worth the trouble. You don't want to multiclass: that's fine, but the reason you are giving is rubbish. As a Slayer, you are already taking a slower Sneak Attack Dice progression, and besides, the dips I'm proposing can open the doors to more SAD, not less. Honestly, for maximum Sneak Attack Damage, I probably wouldn't be a Slayer. I'd be a Ninja or Unchained Rogue. I'd dip a level or 2 in Snakebite Striker Brawler, and I'd work out a way to maximize my attacks/round.
There is the matter of what you gain from dipping. Above, I just showed you that you can get 2 more attacks/round by dipping 3 levels, or by dipping 2 level and getting a Wondrous Item: an Animal Mask or a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. The HotML, by the way costs 8000gp, and the Animal Mask costs 2000. Getting both together will cost you 10,000gp and give you 2 attacks/round where your Speed Enchantment will cost you 30,000gp and give you only 1! Do the math, and I think you will find that there are some cases where it is worth sacrificing a little bit of Damage/Attack in exchange for getting extra attacks.
ViConstantine wrote: speed isnt usable with vital strike I might be missing something, but the only extra attack/round I see you getting is through the Speed Weapon Enchantment, and that's outrageous. Speed is a +3 Enchantment, and that is extremely expensive. The cheapest Speed Weapon out there is going to be +4, which is 32,000gp + the cost of the sword. Unless your campaign is starting at like level 15 or something, and you can make your Greatsword of Speed part of your starting equivalent, you aren't going to be getting that Speed weapon any time soon.
Like I said, though. "I don't wanna!" is a perfectly valid reason for you to not multiclass, not 2 weapon fight, or not anything. It's your character and your game: play it your own way. My advice is all about exploiting the rules to gain mechanical advantage. I'm good at that. But you are the one who should be happy with your own character in the end.
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Scott Wilhelm wrote: If you want to be maximizing damage from Sneak Attack, (...) I don't think that's the case.
Slayer does TWF better than most, but it still has issues. Unless you're a Warpriest with Greater Weapon of the Chosen, a Cave Druid, or somthing ragey with Furious Finish (which doesn't work with Improgved/Greater VS), Vital Strike is a trap option. Cleave is always a trap option.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: The cheapest Speed Weapon out there is going to be +4, which is 32,000gp + the cost of the sword. (...) you aren't going to be getting that Speed weapon any time soon. True, but the OP's basic argument is still sound, because Boots of Speed (or Haste/Blessing of Fervor from a party member) exist.
ViConstantine wrote: hurtful package? I'm sorry, but I laughed way to hard at this. It does sound like a cool feat or ability name. Arachnofiend did actually capitalize the feat names to differentiate them form regular words, though.
Derklord wrote: Vital Strike is a trap option. Cleave is always a trap option. I think Great Cleave and Vital Strike Feats are great. With Vital Strike Feats, you commit to Standard Action Attacks and do not get to Full Attack, but you get to do like double or triple the damage dice. And remember that each successive attack due to high BAB is at -5 with respect to the last one. In my experience, iterative attacks usually don't amount to much. Great Cleave means that you get to hit everyone around you, and that is lovely when you are in the bad position of being surrounded. Another way I like getting extra attacks is by getting Attacks of Opportunity.
I have a character build that uses an Earthbreaker. He dips a level in Ranger so can buff himself with a Wand of Lead Blades. He dips a level in Living Monolith and gets to Enlarge as a Swift Action. So his Base Damage can get up to 4d6, with Vital Strike, that makes it 8d6. That's respectable. This character takes 5 levels in Inquisitor for Bane and Broken Wing Gambit and a level in Cavalier for Paired Opportunist, so that whenever any ally is attacked, he and all his allies get Attacks of Opportunity. He gets lots of attacks/round with respectable damage, and sometimes a really big one. Also, he takes some Dirty Trick Feats, and he has Stalwart and Combat Expertise, so that means that when he makes opponents Blind, he gets a 50% Miss Chance. He'll have a good AC. Stalwart gives him DR/-, and the levels of Inquisitor give him Fast Healing!
All that being said, I'm not exactly recommending Vital Strike and Great Cleave because I think Great Cleave is the best. I'm recommending them because the OP wants to use a Greatsword, and I am recommending ways to get the most out of a Greatsword.
Derklord wrote: maximizing damage from Sneak Attack But recall that to maximize your DPR on your Full Attack with Sneak Attack Damage, I'm not recommending Greatsword at all, but rather 2 weapon fighting, or better yet, Natural Attacks. That's because when you are doing Sneak Attack Damage, the more attacks, the better, and never mind your base damage/attack.
I'm always happy to wake up and see a ton of replies on my posts here, that seriously always makes my day, but without sounding like the most stubborn person out there, I'd like to cover some stuff. My biggest goal here was how to maxemize my chances of getting sneak attacks with the tools I wanted to use. I wasn't aware at first that tripping didn't deny a Dex bonus so I swapped it for dirty trick as mentioned by someone above.
My personal reasons for not using two weapon fighting is because I don't like how it feels, I love pathfinder bUT I love it for the options and custmizability, not for its crunch yknow? Two weapon fighting typically has a worse chance to hit and is a massive feat suck, less so for slayers but still when compared to two handed weapons, it gives me way more numbers to keep track of and for my first character I'm almost a year, I'd like to go easy on myself. I'd also rather not play a tengu because I don't want to play one. I had a character in mind who was a human slayer that wields a greatsword, has a shield, mace and longsword for back ups during hunting, and is somehow always doing massive damage per swing because she is more seasoned than the rest of the party and has done this for years (even though she is the same level) she would eventually weild a greatsword of speed (though the boots a re tempting) or the headsman blade for flavor even though her assassination's wouldn't have a high chance until I can get her the proper headband.
I have been propositioned a few more feats that I never knew about and wI'll be looking into though it seems only one person really answered my question and that was the one who mentioned taking the will save feat earlier on since I have low will. I more or less had my kit and feat progression down, but, my real issue was figuring out the most optimal levels to take what feats so I know I can get the most use out of them snice I haven't played in so long. And of course the suggestions of other feats is always helpful, it isn't really what I needed. Though I appreciate every post posted here.
Also: ranger combat styles (which you can take with slayer talents) will let you skip pq feats. The menacing and underhanded styles particularly might help you with this build.
Java Man wrote: Also: ranger combat styles (which you can take with slayer talents) will let you skip pq feats. The menacing and underhanded styles particularly might help you with this build. the underhanded style is actually how i got the dirty trick stuff.
ViConstantine wrote: Java Man wrote: Also: ranger combat styles (which you can take with slayer talents) will let you skip pq feats. The menacing and underhanded styles particularly might help you with this build. the underhanded style is actually how i got the dirty trick stuff. Also, thank you for the suggestion of killing flourish, i think its a cool feat but violent display more or less does the same thing for me.
I somehow never noticed violent display, other than killing flourish leading to gruesome slaughter I would rather have violent display, it seems like it will trigger more often.
If you can finagle the pq from a ranger style gang up can help in getting flank, if you have at least 2 other melee types in your group. And maxing acrobatics to help with positioning is of course solid. At the upper levels the Hunter's Surprise advanced talent can be great.
Java Man wrote: I somehow never noticed violent display, other than killing flourish leading to gruesome slaughter I would rather have violent display, it seems like it will trigger more often.
If you can finagle the pq from a ranger style gang up can help in getting flank, if you have at least 2 other melee types in your group. And maxing acrobatics to help with positioning is of course solid. At the upper levels the Hunter's Surprise advanced talent can be great.
lol, it more or less seems we are on the same wavelength here actually, id love to be able to fit gang up into this build but cant find out how to as ive already gotten so many feats.
Are you taking the human FCB for bonus talents?
Java Man wrote: Are you taking the human FCB for bonus talents? Im not, the only reason im not is because i couldnt work in a larger int score for the 7 skills i wanted. so once per level i get a skill point. It felt more worth while to have another maxed out skill than to have a net 1 (since to my knowledge we likely arent playing past 15 and the human bonus is 1/8 toward a new talent per level) new talent by level 15
Well, the human bonus is 1/6, not 1/8, but that may not change your thinking. Wouldn't the human skill bonus get you to 7/level anyway?
Try this: if you can take another talent to replace a feat you are taking with standard feats do so. Now in the place of that standard feat take cunning to give you +1 skill point per level. So after 6 levels of fcb you break even. At 7+ levels you either build toward another talent, or get some "free" skills or hp.
Java Man wrote: Well, the human bonus is 1/6, not 1/8, but that may not change your thinking. Wouldn't the human skill bonus get you to 7/level anyway?
Try this: if you can take another talent to replace a feat you are taking with standard feats do so. Now in the place of that standard feat take cunning to give you +1 skill point per level. So after 6 levels of fcb you break even. At 7+ levels you either build toward another talent, or get some "free" skills or hp.
Sorry i didnt voice any of these details because at the time i didnt find them to be important. so, im taking the fcb skill points because im using all of the talents that allow me to take feats instead already. The reason why i dont have the ability to gain an additional skill per level from the human ability is actually because i traded out the skilled human ability for dim dweller which on the human gives me +2 stealth, intimidate, and perception while concealed. It also just straight up gives me darkvission at 60 feet as a human and there was literally no way id pass up darkvission as a human.
Java Man wrote: I somehow never noticed violent display Violent Display is pretty cool .
But consider how it works. You like sneak up on your opponents, then in your surprise round you get 1 attack on 1 opponent (best with Vital Strike) or pop up amongst several opponents and Great Cleave them. You then get an Intimidate on all opponents within 30'. This will make your opponents Shaken, not Flatfooted. They will be Flatfooted after the 2nd round when you hit them again, using Shatter Defenses. They will then be Flatfooted for your next attack.
I guess you could Full Attack 1 of them. In this scenario, only the first Attack does Sneak Attack Damage, but your second iterative attack on your single opponent will render him Flatfooted for your next Attack.
ViConstantine wrote: My biggest goal here was how to maxemize my chances of getting sneak attacks with the tools I wanted to use. So, you want to maximize Greatsword and Sneak Attack as a Human.
ViConstantine wrote: I wasn't aware at first that tripping didn't deny a Dex bonus so I swapped it for dirty trick as mentioned by someone above. Both Dirty Tricks and Tripping Feats build off of Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting. Even though the Prone Condition does not deny your opponent his Dex Mod to AC, it is still brutal. And it can be the springboard for Attacks of Opportunity. Whenever a Prone opponent attempts to get up when you are standing over him, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and he can't 5' Step away from you while Prone. If you have Greater Trip, you get an Attack of Opportunity as he goes down, and if you have Vicious Stomp, you get ANOTHER Attack of Opportunity as he goes down, although the VS AoO has to be an Unarmed Strike (unless it doesn't).
But if you have to choose, I'd choose Dirty Tricks. Like you said, you want several ways to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. Dirty Tricks can do that, and it is versatile.
You might still want to develop Tripping. There is a Slayer Talent, Jaguar’s Pounce, that lets you Trip as an Immediate Action along with your Sneak Attack Damage. I can see a lot of potential of getting an extra Trip Attempt every round that triggers 2 more Attacks of Opportunity that both do Sneak Attack Damage, and debuff with the Prone Condition.
So far, you have a 2 ways to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage: Intimidate and Shatter Defenses and Dirty Tricks.
I can think of a few other ways to lock in Sneak Attack Damage.
Feinting: Improved Feint lets you Feint as a Move Action. If you take 3 levels in Brawler with the Snakebite Striker Archetype, you can Feint as part of Move Action. I know you don't like dipping, but the reason you cited was that you want to accumulate Sneak Attack Damage Dice. In 3 levels on Snakebite Striker Brawler, you get +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage, which is about the same rate you gain SAD as a Slayer. You also get a Combat Feat and this lovely Snake Feint Class Ability to compensate you for forgoing any Talents.
Dimensional Slide: A 1 level dip in Arcanist gives an Arcane Exploit, and I like Dimensional Slide. It is a teleport with a 10' Range that can be done as part of a Move, and it doesn't leave you disoriented the way Dimension Door does. This makes it a great way to achieve Flanking.
Also, it would let you use Wizard and Sorcerer Spell Trigger Magic Items like Magic Wands with no need for Use Magical Device, which DC I find prohibitively high. This would let you use things like a Wand of Greater Invisibility, which is yet another way of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage. I know you don't like dipping because you want to accumulate those Talents and Sneak Attack Damage Dice, but you get so much from this dip, I think it is worth considering. There's also a lot of utility to just having a few spells you can cast in addition to other stuff like a +2 Will Save, extra Class Skills, and stuff.
Darkvision + Darkness Tieflings can do this easily. And there are other Feats like Moonlight Stalker and Nightmare Fist that make this even cooler
Song of Fiery Gaze + Eversmoking Bottle (or Pyrotechnics Spell): You have to dip 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, which you don't want to do, but for this steep price you get a fairly astounding power: both the Eversmoking Bottle and the Pyrotechnics Spell Blind effectively blind everyone within a very large area, giving everyone Total Concealment--50% Miss Chance--makes all terrain Difficult, and robs everyone of their Dex Mods to AC! This would affect friend and foe alike, but level 3 Flame Dance Bards specifically grant their allies the ability to see through fire and smoke. Unless your opponents have Blindsight or something, every encounter becomes a curb stomp! Of course, your GM will probably start making it so DUUUUMB luck! all the monsters you encounter just happen to all have Blindsight...
So,
I'm not recommending you take all of these. There are too many things here to take in a mere 15 levels. This is a buffet. And between Shatter Defenses and Dirty Tricks, you might decide your plate is already full. And you did already express reticence about multiclassing.
ViConstantine wrote: My biggest goal here was how to maxemize my chances of getting sneak attacks with the tools I wanted to use. I wrote: So, you want to maximize Greatsword and Sneak Attack as a Human. I have another idea for your character to get more attacks/round. Maybe more than 1 depending on how you count.
Panther Style Feats
Panther Claw gives you Free Action Unarmed Strikes whenever you Provoke an Attack of Opportunity by Moving out of a Threatened Square. Once you have the 3rd Feat, your retaliatory Strike comes first, and if successful, inflicts a -2 Penalty on your opponents' Attack of Opportunity.
Snake Style Feats:
with Snake Fang, every time someone Attacks and Misses, you get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity, and if it hits, you get an additional Unarmed Strike as an Immediate Action.
So these are Unarmed Strikes. Not so good when you want to be using a Greatsword.
You also have to take
Ascetic Style, which lets you apply all Unarmed Strike Feats to any single Monk Weapon.
Greatsword is not a Monk Weapon, but Temple Sword is. Interestingly enough Temple Sword is also a Tripping Weapon, but you want to use a Greatsword. Thankfully, your character is a Human, and there is a Human Feat called Martial Versatility, which will let you apply Ascetic Style to any weapon in the same Weapon Group as Temple Sword. Greatsword and Temple Sword are both in the Heavy Blade Weapon Group.
Ascetic/Snake Style would give you an Attack of Opportunity with your Greatsword whenever you are Attacked and missed, and that's pretty badass.
But, as you might have learned to expect from me, there will be dipping involved. In order to use 2 Style Feats at once, you have to have at least 1 level in Monk, Master of Many Styles. The prerequisites for Martial Versatility, in addition to being Human are 4 levels in Fighter. Brawler Levels count as Fighter levels for this.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Java Man wrote: I somehow never noticed violent display Violent Display is pretty cool .
But consider how it works. You like sneak up on your opponents, then in your surprise round you get 1 attack on 1 opponent (best with Vital Strike) or pop up amongst several opponents and Great Cleave them. You then get an Intimidate on all opponents within 30'. This will make your opponents Shaken, not Flatfooted. They will be Flatfooted after the 2nd round when you hit them again, using Shatter Defenses. They will then be Flatfooted for your next attack.
I guess you could Full Attack 1 of them. In this scenario, only the first Attack does Sneak Attack Damage, but your second iterative attack on your single opponent will render him Flatfooted for your next Attack.
ViConstantine wrote: My biggest goal here was how to maxemize my chances of getting sneak attacks with the tools I wanted to use. So, you want to maximize Greatsword and Sneak Attack as a Human.
ViConstantine wrote: I wasn't aware at first that tripping didn't deny a Dex bonus so I swapped it for dirty trick as mentioned by someone above. Both Dirty Tricks and Tripping Feats build off of Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting. Even though the Prone Condition does not deny your opponent his Dex Mod to AC, it is still brutal. And it can be the springboard for Attacks of Opportunity. Whenever a Prone opponent attempts to get up when you are standing over him, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and he can't 5' Step away from you while Prone. If you have Greater Trip, you get an Attack of Opportunity as he goes down, and if you have Vicious Stomp, you get ANOTHER Attack of Opportunity as he goes down, although the VS AoO has to be an Unarmed Strike (unless it doesn't).
But if you have to choose, I'd choose Dirty Tricks. Like you said, you want several ways to lock in your Sneak... There are a lot of really good options here mentioned, though i dont think you realize that with shatter defenses lets you hit someone as part of a full round attack, the first attack makes them flat footed which means every iterative attack there after for that turn and the next can add sneak attack dice as even in the feat description it mentions that it includes further attacks for even that same turn. Though this whole feat line is only part of the build as a way to start combat if im unable to go first or if im unable to sneak up on an enemy. The rest of what was mentioned seems really helpful though im taking most of it already and dont have room for many more feats if any.
ViConstantine wrote: i dont think you realize that with shatter defenses lets you hit someone as part of a full round attack Nope. I got it.
I wrote: I guess you could Full Attack 1 of them. In this scenario, only the first Attack does Sneak Attack Damage, but your second iterative attack on your single opponent will render him Flatfooted for your next Attack. I've warmed up some on Shatter Defenses, especially combined with Violent Display: didn't you watch the videos I linked to of movie characters using Violent Display?
I still like Dirty Tricks and Bluff better than Shatter Defenses, though. Shatter Defenses only works on an opponent you already have Intimidated. You have to have spent a Full Round Action prior using Dazzling Display and making no attacks at all. Then on the next Round, you hit them using Shatter Defenses, your first attack doing no Sneak Attack Damage. Then successive, iterative Attacks in your Full Attack and your first Attack the following Round do Sneak Attack Damage if you are lucky. The only other way to use Dazzling Display is the way the movie characters I linked to did, by acting in the Surprise Round or by winning Initiative, and that can be very situational. Also, there are a lot of opponents who can't be Intimidated.
I noticed you are taking Improved Dirty Tricks through the Ranger Underhanded Combat Style, and I think that is good. Dirty Tricks don't require prior actions to use, you can spit tobacco juice into their eyes right away as a Standard Action or in place of an Attack if you use Quick Dirty Trick or the Level 2 Bounty Hunter Slayer ability. If you take Greater Dirty Tricks, in addition to the extra +2 on your check, your 'Trick last extra Rounds.
Balphers wrote: I'm a fan of the Gang Up method. It works even better for slayers than it does for rogues due to their increased survivability on the front line. I like this suggestion. It's a single Feat. It makes it easier to achieve Flanking, and I'm a big fan of having multiple ways of locking in SAD.
Balphers wrote: Edit: Nevermind, I see you dumped Int so that's out unless you score a headband or something. This would also be a problem if you wanted to take Greater or Quick dirty tricks. This problem would be fixed by that dip into Snakebite Striker Brawler I was talking about. Brawlers are treated as having an Intelligence of 13 for the purposes of taking Feats like that. Snakebite Strikers don't trade that away to get that +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage, they trade away Martial Flexibility :( , and they get that thing where they Feint as part of a Move Action.
ViConstantine,
You're kind of inspiring me to post my own Human, Greatsword-wielding, Sneak-Attacking build.
Considering iron will is very useful on the build you could work toward getting a mauler familiar on this build. This was you always have a flanking buddy.
Grandlounge wrote: Considering iron will is very useful on the build you could work toward getting a mauler familiar on this build. This was you always have a flanking buddy. I was thinking about Iron Will since it is a prereq for Living Monolith. Using a Greatsword like the OP is, being able to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action is awesome: extra 1d6+1.5 Damage! Also, the OP wants to make opponents Flatfooted with the Intimidate Skill, and the bigger you are, the more Intimidating you are.
I was not thinking about a Mauler Familiar, but that is a very good option. If the OP gets his Familiar via the Eldritch Guardian Fighter Archetype, the Familiar gains all the Combat Feats of the character, including a lot of those Teamwork Feats.
This is a bit far-afield of what the OP is thinking, but I really love the idea of like a Halfling melee character riding on a flying Mauler Familiar, like that Dragonfly, maybe.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: ViConstantine,
You're kind of inspiring me to post my own Human, Greatsword-wielding, Sneak-Attacking build.
Let's see what I come up with:
Human
Level 1, Brawler: Snakebite Striker, Unarmed 1d6, Sneak Attack 1d6, Light Armor, Light and Heavy shield, Simple Weapons, Handaxe, Short Sword, Close Weapons, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
2B1Fighter1: Martial Weapons, Medium and Heavy armor, Weapon Focus Greatsword
3B2F1: Dodge, Gang Up
4B3F1:Snake Feint
5B3F1Arcanist1: Dimensional Slide, Wizard/Sorcerer Spells, Martial Versatility: WeaponFocus
6B3F1A1Ninja1: Poison,Sneak Attack +1d6
So this character at level 6 has the same Sneak Attack Damage as the OPs: 2d6. The BAB is only +4 compared with the OP's +6. The saving throws are the same. And the character has lost about 3 hit points. He's lost about 9 Skill Points, but this character can claim many more skills as Class Skills.
This character though has 2 ways of locking in Sneak Attack Damage: Feinting and Flanking. With Improved Feint, the character can Feint as a Move Action. With Snake Feint, the character can Feint as part of his movement. Gang Up lets the character Flank with any Ally Threatening an opponent, and the Dimensional Slide, that 10' Teleport, makes achieving Flanking even easier.
The level Arcanist also allows this character to use Magic Wands without the need to put ranks in Use Magic Device, the DCs of which I consider unacceptably high. The Wand-Spells allow yet another way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage: spells such as Glitterdust and Greater Invisibility. Remember this is a Human, so does not have Darkvision, there are spells for that as well as for gaining Scent as well as other spells for finding hidden opponents like See Invisible. He can also use Swift Girding to dress in Heavy or Medium armor as a Standard Action. I don't know about you, but few things make my skin crawl more than that devilish look on a GM's face when he asks, "Are you sleeping in your Armor?"
7B3F1A1N2: Ninja Trick: Style Master: Panther Style, Combat Reflexes
8B3F1A1N3: Sneak Attack 1d6, No Trace +1
9B3F1A1N3Monk1: Master of Many Styles, Ascetic Style, Martial Versatility: Ascetic Style
When you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square, Panther Style give you a bonus Unarmed Strike as a Swift Action. Ascetic Style lets you apply any Unarmed Strike Feat to any weapon in the Monk Group such as the 9 Ring Broad Sword. Martial Versatility allows you to apply any single-weapon Feat to any other weapon in the same Weapon Group, and Greatsword and the 9 Ring Broadsword are both in the Heavy Blades Weapon Group. So this character can use Panther Style Feats with a Greatsword, teleporting to achieve Flanking, Feinting as he moves.
10B3F1A1N4M1: Combat Trick: Panther Claw
11B3F1A1N5M1: Mobility, Sneak Attack+1d6
12B3F2A1N5M1: Panther Parry
Panther Claw gives the character Free Action instead of the Swift Action Attacks of Panther Style. This is limited by the character's Wisdom Mod. The OP is Wisdom dumping, which I wouldn't do do in any event. At least I would make the Charisma 10 and the Wisdsom 13, 14 by level 10. This would make the character less good at Bluffing, but there are ways to get Bluff Bonuses such as the Mask of the Stony Demeanor, which gives you a +5 on Bluff Checks to Feint in Combat.
Since this character is provoking attacks of opportunity, it behooves him to take Dodge and Mobility.
13B3F2A1N5M1Inquisitor1: Weapon Specialization Greatsword
14B3F2A1N5M1I2:
15B3F2A1N5M1I3: Solo Tactics, Broken Wing Gambit, Feat
So, this one is a little controversial: Broken Wing Gambit says it grants Attacks of Opportunity to your allies that also have this Feat, but there is an FAQ that says that you count as your own ally, that "your allies" means "you and your allies" unless such would "make no sense or be impossible." Broken Wing Gambit is a Teamwork Feat, and some people think you can't use Teamwork Feats without teammates that have the Feat, and so would trigger the make-no-sense-or-be-impossible clause.
The problem with this argument is that Teamwork feats don't actually require that, only describe Teamwork Feats as needing such allies "in most cases." People have then argued that the intent of the rules is that they always require allies with the Feat (an argument I have little respect for), but taking BWG via 3 levels in Inquisitor, the Solo Tactics Feat lets you act as if all your Allies DO have all your Teamwork Feats, so this use of BWG is totally in-line with the intent of the rules. And if the GM still has a problem, you can just make your level 15 Feat Paired Opportunist, which makes it so that if any of you get an Attack of Opportunity, all of you do, and with Solo Tactics, you get Attacks of Opportunity as if you and all your Allies all had Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunist. If push really comes to shove, just take a level in Cavalier at level 16 and take BWG or PO then, so then all your allies really do have one of those Feats and you get to act as if they all had the other, and so you are golden.
So, this character gets his iterative attacks, he gets to lock in Sneak Attack Damage whenever he has an Ally Threatening the same opponent or by Feinting, also through spells such as Greater Invisibility. He can get at least an additional 2 Free Action Attacks/round by Provoking Attacks of Opportunity, and at least 3 Attacks of Opportunity per round provoked whenever he is attacked.
Here is an Intimidate build I have been working on.
Human greatsword wielder:
3 levels Anti Paladin
1 levels Thug Unchained Rogue (more levels later)
6 levels Slayer
20=Str: 15+2+2 (belt)+1 (lev 4)
13=Dex: 13
14=Con: 14
10=Int: 10
10=Wis: 10
14=Cha: 14
If you can reliably force movement on your enemy’s turn then step up and strike is a posibility. Fear condition like frightened and antipaladins aura of cowardice is a way to do that. If the enemy use the withdraw action you still get to hit them with step up and strike after moving 10 ft. after the enemy. If they continue the movement away from you, they will provoke an aoo. If you grab Stand Still, you can prevent them from leaving your threatened square and full attack again on your turn.
Progression:
1 lev: Anti Paladin (Detect good, smite good 1/day - Power Attack, Step Up)
2 lev: Anti Paladin (Touch of corruption, Unholy resilience - cha to saves)
3 lev: Slayer (Ranger 1-weapon fighting style - Intimidating Provess, Following Step)
4 lev: Thug Unchained Rogue (Intimidate to frigørende condition) 1d6
5 lev: (Kyton BloodRager (+10ft. move, Extra Rage)) skip this if you dont want so much dipping.
6 lev: Anti Paladin (Aura of Cowardice, Cruelty, Plague Bringer)
7 lev: Slayer (Cornugon Smash, Rogue Talent: Feat - Step up and strike)
8 lev: Slayer 2d6
9 lev: Slayer (Ranger 2-weapon fighting style - Shatter Defences, Stand still)
10 lev: Slayer
11 lev: Slayer (Critical Fokus) 3d6
12 lev: Slayer
13 lev: Slayer (Ranger 3-weapon fighting style - Dreadful Carnage,)
14 lev: Thug Unchained Rogue (Staggering Critical) 4d6
15 lev: Thug Unchained Rogue (Sneaking Precision)
16 lev: Thug Unchained Rogue (Exhausting Critical) 5d6
Made some corrections. Level 15+ is not correct. I haven’t found a way to get that in the build yet.
Progression:
1 lev: Slayer (Power Attack, Step Up, Studied Target +1)
2 lev: Slayer (Ranger menacing style - Intimidating Provess)
3 lev: Slayer (Following Step) 1d6 sneak attack
4 lev: Slayer (Rogue talent - Unwitting ally)
5 lev: Slayer (Combat refexes, Studied Target +2)
6 lev: Slayer (Ranger menacing style - Shatter Defences, Rogue Talent: Feat - Cornugon Smash, extra slayer talent - trap finding) 2d6 sneak attack
7 lev: Thug Unchained Rogue (Intimidate to frightend condition, Step up and strike) 3d6 sneak attack
8 lev: Anti Paladin (Detect good, smite good 1/day)
9 lev: Anti Paladin (Touch of corruption, Unholy resilience - cha to saves, Stand still)
10 lev: Anti Paladin (Aura of Cowardice, Cruelty, Plague Bringer)
11 lev: Slayer (Stalker, Critical Fokus, Studied Target as swift action)
12 lev: Slayer (Slayer talent)
13 lev: Slayer (Accomplished Sneak Attacker) 5d6 sneak attack
14 lev: Slayer (Ranger menacing style - Dreadful Carnage, Advanced slayer talent - feat: Tiring Critical, Studied Target +3)
15 lev: Slayer (Sneaking Precision)
16 lev: Slayer (Advanced slayer talent Opportunitist:, extra Advanced slayer talent Evasion, Exhausting Critical) 6d6
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