Would you only be considered as having the prerequisite fullfilled when you have a spell charge in your hand? im working out whether or not using dazzling display would thus require two rounds to prepare?
Yeah "Melee Touch Attack" isn't a valid choice for Weapon Focus, so as a rules question the answer is going to be "Whatever you're doing doesn't work."
I believe you can take "Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike", which might give you what you want (and if you're ruling that you can't take "Weapon Focus: Touch Attack" then you should be allowed to re-spec).
Having said that, if you and your group have allowed the Weapon Focus feat, then I'd rule that you'd have to have a valid touch attack ready to use Dazzling Display (so you'd have to cast a touch spell or something similar before using Dazzling Display). There are some items that would let you always be "armed" as far as this is concerned, eg: POISONER'S GLOVES.
Weapon Focus is with a type of weapon (or unarmed strike or grapple, by specific exception). It doesn't matter how you attack with it or what AC you target, you select a type of weapon. "Melee Touch Attack" isn't a weapon.
how do you handle Dazzling Display with rays, since a ray is a legal target? Do you have to cast a ray spell, or can you automatically get it?
Dazzling Display asks for "While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus", and you never wield a ray, not even under the best interpretation. Therefore, even if you can legally have the feat, you can never use it.
That's nonsense. Who would let the player take the feat then turn around and say, "Nyah, Nyah! You have the Feat, but you can use it!"
The rules. Although one could argue that Dazzling Display's "proficiency with the selected weapon." prereq still stands, and does not get the special allowances Weapon Focus has, and thus isn't fulfilled when you don't have selected an actual weapon with Weapon Focus.
Okay, so now you are making a different argument.
When re-reading Dazzling Display, I noticed a possible flaw in my argument. Hence the second sentence. It's not a clear case (you already have to ignore parts of the Weapon Focus description to use it with rays etc.), but since the end result is always the same (can't use Dazzling Display), I don't really understand the issue.
Do you agree that you can use Dazzling Display with a melee weapon with Brilliant Energy, and because Brilliant Energy Weapons bypass Armor and Shield bonuses, in many cases, they target opponents' Touch AC?
Do you agree that Dazzling Display says it is made with a weapon, not necessarily a melee weapon?
Do you believe that you can use Dazzling Display with a bow or a Firearm?
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. I already said that "It doesn't matter how you attack with it or what AC you target, you select a type of weapon."
So, you are not speaking at all to my points that you can use Dazzling Display with Brilliant Energy melee weapons. You are not arguing against my assertion that Dazzling Display can be used with Ranged Weapons, including Firearms which make Touch Attacks.
Is that right?
Yes, that is right. I repeat myself, "It doesn't matter how you attack with it or what AC you target, you select a type of weapon." Melee weapon, thrown weapon, projectile weapon? Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display don't care about that. Class features, weapon enchantments, inherent properties of the weapon (except for counting as a specific weapon type)? Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display don't care about that. I never said anything different.
If Ray is a valid choice for Dazzling Display, then you can use it with Dazzling Display. If you can't, then it's not a valid choice!
That's not true, because a feat's prerequisites and a feat's condition to use it aren't the same. Let's say you have Dazzling Display with longswords. If you lose all your weapons, you still have and qualify for the Dazzling Display feat, but you can't use it because you can't fulfill the "While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus" condition.
So I have a new observation after looking at some of the post. If there were a spell that gave you multiple rays that could be used over the course of a duration longer than instantaneous, then could you on a proceeding round use dazzling display with a "Ray"?
Also in the vein of "melee touch" I assume the problem is that it's "melee touch attack" that weapon focus and thus dazzling display cannot be used with, but if you were to get Weapon Focus "Specific Melee Touch Spell" like "Elemental Touch" then you can do that so long as you have the spell cast, and thus charges left in it before the spell expires to use dazzling display with the spell?
So I have a new observation after looking at some of the post. If there were a spell that gave you multiple rays that could be used over the course of a duration longer than instantaneous, then could you on a proceeding round use dazzling display with a "Ray"?
Also in the vein of "melee touch" I assume the problem is that it's "melee touch attack" that weapon focus and thus dazzling display cannot be used with, but if you were to get Weapon Focus "Specific Melee Touch Spell" like "Elemental Touch" then you can do that so long as you have the spell cast, and thus charges left in it before the spell expires to use dazzling display with the spell?
'No' to everything. A ray is never, ever, a weapon you can wield. A touch spell charge is never, ever, a weapon that you can wield. You can't select "Melee Touch Spell" with weapon focus, you can't select "Elemental Touch" with Weapon Focus, you can't select any kind of spell except "rays" for weapon focus. Even with Steam Ray Fusillade, the rays only exist for the split second you're firing them, you enver wield them in your hand.
Yeah gonna have to disagree with you on that then, because "Rays" are the weapon, not just the type of attack, they are considered the weapon and if in a spell did/does exist that gives you the option to use multiple "Rays" with a duration longer than instantaneous then all criteria to use it with any feat that utilizes a weapon to perform a action are then met so long as you can take such a action at that given time. If there is a ray spell that you can keep doing after the intial casting of it for a time, then you definitely should be able to do Dazzling Display with that spell, not because spells are a weapon, but because the spell created a effect that resulted in weapon.
Weapon Focus Ray is a valid option, this isn't about whether or not spells are considered weapons the rules state that spells aren't weapons So stop using that as a argument, no one is arguing that. However the effect a spell creates if its weapon like is valid because now its no longer the matter of the spell but the effect it created being again weapon like. A spell like Force long sword, creates a long sword of force for you or someone else to wield, its a spell though and thus by what some of you are saying is thus not eligable for all the feats that are normally applicable to long swords and their use, that is wrong, its a weapon like spell and the rules specifically cover that weapon like spells can be used with feats that require you to use a weapon.
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nef
^
FAQ backs up this view point.
Also again back to the melee touch it does in fact work so long as the spell in question is a weapon-like spell, example Flame Blade, you could take weapon focus Scimitar, or weapon focus (flame blade) because the effect creates a scimitar like weapon effect and the bonus will apply, therefore there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to do a dazzling display with a flame blade the bonus and benefits of weapon focus scimitar apply to the spell as well as it does the weapon, a flame blade resolves as melee touch attacks. However normal the spell doesn't grant proficiency with scimitars thankfully druids are automatically proficient with scimitars, however Shamans are not, so you would have to take weapon focus flame blade anyway if you were a shaman, (flame blade create scimitar like weapons).
Spiritual Weapon works similarly in that it creates a weapon like effect but you don't even have to be proficient with the weapon it creates and likely wont be (Clerics of Gorum aren't likely proficient with greatswords), but the weapon doesn't necessarily get wielded by the cleric or divine caster anyway, however since its a weapon like spell any feat that would apply to greatswords that the cleric has would apply to this spell assuming the spell creates a greatsword, now i can't think of why cleric would have any such feats unless the option to qualify for the feat was proficiency with "Spiritual Weapon"... (spiritual weapon isn't a touch but i thought i should show at least two examples of two types of attacks with spells that still qualify for weapon feats.)
So no you can't take weapon focus Melee Touch Attack but so long as a spell creates a weapon like effect whether it resolves as a touch attack or weapon attack the spell as the focus of the feat should be allowed.
So basically unless I can find or create a spell that resolves its attacks as a melee touch attack, has duration greater than instanteous, and creates a weapon-like effect then the answer is yes, it can be used with Dazzling Display, assuming I have weapon focus with either the weapon it resembles, or until that spell specifically.
He might use a Brilliant Energy Weapon that he has Weapon Focus for. Brilliant Energy Weapons make Melee Touch Attacks.No, they do not. They make attacks that ignore Armor and Shield bonuses, they do not ignore Natural Armor, which a touch attack would.Tomato, Tomato!
You can use Dazzling Display with a Brilliant Energy Weapon you have Weapon Focus with.
Brilliant Energy Weapons target your opponents' Touch AC only most of the time. Okay, thanks for pointing that out.
It does not matter if a weapon has the Brilliant Energy property.
You still use the weapon focus appropriate to the weapon used.
It does not matter if an attack is resolved against touch ac or normal ac.
You need to be wielding a weapon, or weapon-like spell effect, and have the appropriate feats. That is all there is to it.
I guess the best way of doing it would be weapon focus (unarmed strike), dazzling display. You are proficient with unarmed strikes, though unless you have improved unarmed strike you'll provoke an attack of opportunity, however you can deliver touch attack spells via unarmed strikes or natural weapons, and when armed with such spells and making a unarmed strike you don't provoke correct?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/aoandon
just wanted to point out something i just saw thanks to a reddit post, that creature has weapon focus (touch), not saying its thus a valid option but that apparently the writers of the bestiarys don't follow the rules as the players seem to be beholden to.
Mako, that FAQ doesn't backs up your view point at all, because the two feats adressed in it don't require you to wield the weapon, unlike Dazzling Display. The FAQ does suggest (although not make any RAW) that you can select Dazzling Display (Rays), as I presumed in my second post, but that doesn't help one to actually use the feat, as I've explained to Scott.
Force Sword explicitly says the effect is "one sword-shaped weapon of force". You can't take Weapon Focus (Force Sword), but the created "weapon of force" does profit from Weapon Focus (Longsword).
Spiritual Weapon explicitly says "Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon."
Clerics of Gorum aren't likely proficient with greatswords
"Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities."
the cleric thing i forgot about, was thinking about 3.5 clerics i guess.
the cleric thing i forgot about, was thinking about 3.5 clerics i guess.
3.5 clerics were also proficient :)
I was only pointing out that there are ways of attacks that target Touch AC that also also work for Dazzling Display.He might use a Brilliant Energy Weapon that he has Weapon Focus for. Brilliant Energy Weapons make Melee Touch Attacks.No, they do not. They make attacks that ignore Armor and Shield bonuses, they do not ignore Natural Armor, which a touch attack would.Tomato, Tomato!
You can use Dazzling Display with a Brilliant Energy Weapon you have Weapon Focus with.
Brilliant Energy Weapons target your opponents' Touch AC only most of the time. Okay, thanks for pointing that out.
It does not matter if a weapon has the Brilliant Energy property.
You still use the weapon focus appropriate to the weapon used.
It does not matter if an attack is resolved against touch ac or normal ac.
You need to be wielding a weapon, or weapon-like spell effect, and have the appropriate feats. That is all there is to it.
A magus who so chooses can turn any attack into a touch attack.
It has nothing to do with weapon focus, dazzling display, or anything else. It is a straw man.
Mako, that FAQ doesn't backs up your view point at all,Yeah, it does. Rays are treated as weapons for all sorts of Feats.
because the two feats adressed in it don't require you to wield the weapon... as I've explained to Scott.And I have explained to you, a weapon does not have to be a physical object for a wielder to wield it, according to Google's definition of Wield. Unlike your explanation, mine is backed by evidence!
But let's take a moment and look at Dazzling Display's Prereqs again.
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon.So, vis a vis prerequisites, can a Ray be a "selected weapon?" Let's look at Weapon Focus.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.So, Weapon Focus directly says that a Ray is a weapon that can be chosen. And since it is a prerequisite for Dazzling Display, the writer must have known about the existence of spellcasters with Weapon Focus Ray and considered this possibility, or at least were responsible for knowing it.
Also, there are other FAQs
Bear in mind, "effect" includes a lot of things. "Effect is just a change that is attributable to a cause. The effect of Dazzling Display is that it lets you use your Weapon to Intimidate all Opponents within 30'. And this FAQ says that Rays count as Weapons for the the purposes of effects that...Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes....
You can take weapon focus: Ray and Dazzling Display: Ray.
You cannot use rays to make a dazzling display. Rays are instantaneous. They won’t be around for you to wield during your full-round action.
Yeah, it does. Rays are treated as weapons for all sorts of Feats.
The FAQ only adresses Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical, nothing else. Claiming otherwise is dishonest.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of
I bolded and enlarged a part, because you apparently didn't see it. "this feat" does not mean "all feats".
Bear in mind, "effect" includes a lot of things.Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes....
Yeah, but "affect" doesn't. Dazzling Display doesn't affect the weapon, it only requires one as a condition to use the feat. You don't use your weapon to intimidate opponents, you use the feat.
And I have explained to you, a weapon does not have to be a physical object for a wielder to wield it, according to Google's definition of Wield.
Google's definition of wield says "hold and use", you have not given any indication that you can hold a ray.
The issue isn't rays counting as weapons. The issue is that rays only exist in the split second you fire them, and that you thus can't be wieldign one long enough to use Dazzling Display.
3.5 clerics were also proficient :)
I don't think so:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields).
Every deity has a favored weapon (see Deities, page 106), and his or her clerics consider it a point of pride to wield that weapon. A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to that weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category.
The way I see it, only Clerics with the war domain gain proficiency with the favored wepaon, and only if it's a martial weapon.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
You can't hold a ranged touch spell/ray. Therefore, you can't wield a ray. Therefore, you can't use Dazzling Display with a ray spell because you can't use the standard action cast it in one turn, then next turn use the full-round action that Dazzling Display requires. Because rays can't be held, so you can't "wield" them.
There's no rule that says you have to hold a weapon to wield it. That's usually how it works, but it doesn't have to be. You wouldn't hold an Abrams tank, but you sure can intimidate someone with it! You could intimidate everyone within 30' with it!
Scott Wilhelm, this is the Rules Questions forum. This is not the place to debate your opinion. This is the forum to answer questions on how the rules are supposed to work.
The bottom line is that the ray cannot be held, which means that, regardless of anything else you have to say, it does not exist for long enough to be used with Dazzling Display. Even if you use a Quickened ray spell, the ray only exists until the attack roll is resolved.
By trying to "win" this discussion, you're doing a disservice to anyone looking for a clear answer to the original question.
And as for your nonsense response about "no rule that says you have to hold a weapon to wield it," I suggest you actually read the core rulebook. There are numerous references to wielding a weapon and how they must be in a hand (or appendage that can hold and manipulate it).
Here's an excerpt from p. 140 of the Core Rulebook:
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all."
If you can't hold, then you can't wield it...
And if the definition of "wield" is "to have and be able to use," then rays can't be used with Dazzling Display by your own definition: Since a ray is gone once you use it, you don't have it anymore... You're arguing in bad faith.