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I wouldn't call it painful, but I did find it annoying that Powers exclusive to one class feat were buried in the Spells chapter, rather than being in the feat description. What made it worse was that there was no reference in the Power as to what granted it, so there was no way to find a cool power and then figure out what kind of character you should build to get it.
Hopefully they've solved this issue in the finished book.
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My group got making characters down to an hour a piece or so at high levels, excepting spells. It was far from impossible to do so.
That said, defending the layout of the playtest is ridiculous. That layout was awful in several important ways. I don't agree with all Mathmuse's criticisms of it, but the fact that Powers were mixed in with spells, not defined in the class chapter, and had no page citation in said chapter either, was desperately awful. As was the Alchemical items having no chart of their own, necessitating Alchemists to look through the alphabetical list desperately searching for items of the right level.
There were numerous other smaller issues as well.
Personally, I didn't find the 'Pick X + Int Skills' thing in the Classes to be a problem, though. You can just note down X, finish determining your stats, then look at the Skill Chapter.
Or, if you're picking them based on theme, do so right then based on that, and remember to add another if you add to Int in the final stage of chargen.
Well searching for terms like Bolstered instead of looking in the glossary or index is a bit silly if I'm honest. For stuff like named Feats, Powers, Spells or Items it is really quite adequate. As for having open pdfs, you are obviously being facetious. We had two open, one at the thing we were building (i.e the Cleric class page) and one for looking up things like Powers.
My PDF reader--the free Acrobat Reader DC--won't let me open two copies of the same file. Later, I copied the rulebook file to have two separate files, but I did not think of that at first.
Thus, I had to scroll away from the original page to the index, look up the reference in the index, go to the reference, and then return to the original page. While dealing with the minor annoyance that the PDF page numbers were one off from the rulebook page numbers. The Search function often arrived at the right description in one or two page jumps from clicking the Next button, and returned to the original page by clicking the Previous button. Alas, the easy Search fails for "manipulate" or "bolstered" or other common words.
I also had both the paperpack rulebook and the PDF. But usually a player was reading the paperback and I was reluctant to borrow it back.
Bolstered is a non-descriptive keyword when applied to a beneficial effect, as in bolstered against Treat Wounds.
Well searching for terms like Bolstered instead of looking in the glossary or index is a bit silly if I'm honest. For stuff like named Feats, Powers, Spells or Items it is really quite adequate. As for having open pdfs, you are obviously being facetious. We had two open, one at the thing we were building (i.e the Cleric class page) and one for looking up things like Powers.My PDF reader--the free Acrobat Reader DC--won't let me open two copies of the same file. Later, I copied the rulebook file to have two separate files, but I did not think of that at first.
Thus, I had to scroll away from the original page to the index, look up the reference in the index, go to the reference, and then return to the original page. While dealing with the minor annoyance that the PDF page numbers were one off from the rulebook page numbers. The Search function often arrived at the right description in one or two page jumps from clicking the Next button, and returned to the original page by clicking the Previous button. Alas, the easy Search fails for "manipulate" or "bolstered" or other common words.
I also had both the paperpack rulebook and the PDF. But usually a player was reading the paperback and I was reluctant to borrow it back.
Bolstered is a non-descriptive keyword when applied to a beneficial effect, as in bolstered against Treat Wounds.
To be fair, while it takes a while to internalize all of the "tags", they add a lot of future proofing since you only have to do it once and they'll apply consistently throughout the life of the game. Now that you know about manipulate, you'll never question whether an action will provoke an AOO or not if you have access to the tags. I still sometimes check the PF1 chart for provoking after many years and I was surprised to learn that drawing a weapon didn't provoke, but sheathing did (unfortunately it's different now).
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I think it's rare to say that the Playtest rulebook layout was completely fine, but it was certainly usable without needing hours.
Hm, "Manipulate actions often trigger reactions," means that the description of what manipulate actions trigger reactions is elsewhere. That's bad organization. And searching the PDF for "manipulate" to find that description is time-consuming, because lots of actions are labeled "manipulate." Of course, the triggered reaction is the Attack of Opportunity reaction, a fighter class feature and a champion feat. Also, the "suitable appendadge" part is handled by the Method of Use section on actions, so 'manipulate" is not needed for that.Thus, the importance of manipulate is not that an object is manipulated, but that some manipulative actions provoke an attack of opportunity. Drawing a sword requires the maniplate Interact action, so drawing a sword provokes. Swing the same sword requires the non-manipulate Strike action, so swinging a sword does not provoke. The degree of actual manipulation of the sword can be irrelevant. The Manipulate keyword is not descriptive after all.
The thing is: you don't need to know exactly what reactions Manipulate provokes. Will it help you to know exactly what reactions are triggered, especially if bestiary-specific versions begin to come into play? Does it help to list out that being grappled makes it harder? Or all of the other interactions? No - that's all extra complexity you're opting into in advance.
The keyword tells you the basics that you require: that it requires a free hand/handlike appendage, and that it often provokes reactions. In the same fashion, you don't need to know all the arcane spells and what they do before you can gain a bonus to saves against arcane spells.
Now, one that was spectacularly unhelpful was Warded Touch, that allowed you to use Lay on Hands without the manipulate trait. However, because Somatic Spellcasting also listed that it required a hand (theoretically unconnected to the trait), did it require a hand or not? It wasn't immediately clear, and thus was an issue.
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Hm, "Manipulate actions often trigger reactions," means that the description of what manipulate actions trigger reactions is elsewhere. That's bad organization. And searching the PDF for "manipulate" to find that description is time-consuming, because lots of actions are labeled "manipulate." Of course, the triggered reaction is the Attack of Opportunity reaction, a fighter class feature and a champion feat. Also, the "suitable appendadge" part is handled by the Method of Use section on actions, so 'manipulate" is not needed for that.
Thus, the importance of manipulate is not that an object is manipulated, but that some manipulative actions provoke an attack of opportunity. Drawing a sword requires the maniplate Interact action, so drawing a sword provokes. Swing the same sword requires the non-manipulate Strike action, so swinging a sword does not provoke. The degree of actual manipulation of the sword can be irrelevant. The Manipulate keyword is not descriptive after all.
The thing is: you don't need to know exactly what reactions Manipulate provokes. Will it help you to know exactly what reactions are triggered, especially if bestiary-specific versions begin to come into play? Does it help to list out that being grappled makes it harder? Or all of the other interactions? No - that's all extra complexity you're opting into in advance.
The keyword tells you the basics that you require: that it requires a free hand/handlike appendage, and that it often provokes reactions. In the same fashion, you don't need to know all the arcane spells and what they do before you can gain a bonus to saves against arcane spells.
Oops, I forgot that manipulate also interacted with grabbed condition, "If you attempt a manipulate action, activity, free action, or reaction while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; attempt the check after using it but before any effects are applied." And I am the GM, the person who has to know exactly what reactions Manipulate provokes. I wish that the trait gave me more clues to remember its interactions, because that was not mentioned in the Manipulate entry.
By the way, to quote that piece of the rules, I checked the index under Grapple, which sent me to Athletics on page 146, where it mentioned the grabbed condition, so I went to the Conditions on page 322. If a player told me, "I am Grappling the goblin," I would have to look up both Grapple and Grabbed to see what happens with the goblin. One day I will have both memorized, but today is not yet that day. That is the key problem with the organization of the playtest rulebook. We will see whether Paizo fixed it.
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dirtypool, if you think the layout of the Playtest was acceptable, just do me this favor.
Working with the assumption you know nothing about the rules and starting from the spell entry, tell me how the spell Dispel Magic works.
If going down that rabbit hole doesn't convince you the playtest book has organization issues, then, frankly, you have vastly different organizational standards than the average person.
dirtypool, if you think the layout of the Playtest was acceptable, just do me this favor.
Working with the assumption you know nothing about the rules and starting from the spell entry, tell me how the spell Dispel Magic works.
If going down that rabbit hole doesn't convince you the playtest book has organization issues, then, frankly, you have vastly different organizational standards than the average person.
Better still how about you work from the assumption that my opinion is not some failing on my part that the ever genius and long term forum posters must correct so that I understand the game as fully as they do. Move past the arrogance of trying to correct people you don’t agree with.
I found no issue with the bulk of the organization in that book. Are there issues that need addressing? Sure. The kinds of issues that made me take multiple hours to build a character on day one of the playtest as others said surely must be the case for anyone who cares enough to weigh their options? No. Were the issues mostly in the magic chapter? Yes. Does that mean the whole creation section is terribly organized? No.
It’s disingenuous to present my argument as being that the book is perfect, because I’ve not said anything of the kind. Just that it is not as endemically flawed as has been asserted in this thread.
One issue I had with the playtest regarding organization is that I'm simply not used to using PDFs for "core rulebooks" in tabletop games, and I wasn't about to pay for (or print out and bind) a dead tree version of temporary, fluid rules. If I had the real book I might have had less issues with it since I can just stick post-it notes as flags so I can easily flip back and forth between relevant sections, something I found cumbersome with the PDF.
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Oops, I forgot that manipulate also interacted with grabbed condition, "If you attempt a manipulate action, activity, free action, or reaction while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; attempt the check after using it but before any effects are applied." And I am the GM, the person who has to know exactly...Hm, "Manipulate actions often trigger reactions," means that the description of what manipulate actions trigger reactions is elsewhere. That's bad organization. And searching the PDF for "manipulate" to find that description is time-consuming, because lots of actions are labeled "manipulate." Of course, the triggered reaction is the Attack of Opportunity reaction, a fighter class feature and a champion feat. Also, the "suitable appendadge" part is handled by the Method of Use section on actions, so 'manipulate" is not needed for that.
Thus, the importance of manipulate is not that an object is manipulated, but that some manipulative actions provoke an attack of opportunity. Drawing a sword requires the maniplate Interact action, so drawing a sword provokes. Swing the same sword requires the non-manipulate Strike action, so swinging a sword does not provoke. The degree of actual manipulation of the sword can be irrelevant. The Manipulate keyword is not descriptive after all.
The thing is: you don't need to know exactly what reactions Manipulate provokes. Will it help you to know exactly what reactions are triggered, especially if bestiary-specific versions begin to come into play? Does it help to list out that being grappled makes it harder? Or all of the other interactions? No - that's all extra complexity you're opting into in advance.
The keyword tells you the basics that you require: that it requires a free hand/handlike appendage, and that it often provokes reactions. In the same fashion, you don't need to know all the arcane spells and what they do before you can gain a bonus to saves against arcane spells.
While I'm on the subject, I clicked through manipulate in the Playtest rulebook. It also is stopped by things like Animal Form and Dragon Form, isn't stopped by free-hand weapons like cestuses and gauntlets, loses you more air underwater, and is hampered by entangled, grappled, and restrained.
You don't need to know any of this by default.
As for having open pdfs, you are obviously being facetious.
Not in the least: trying to pick out alchemy items and cleric domains required multiple open pages to compare. You can't glance down a simple list and compare the descriptions since nothing is placed with like items. Even spells required several pages open to see what everything did. It's sad, but opening up 30+ pdf's was easier than diving head first into the domain list then the spell section then back to the domain list, then the spell list... THIRTY SEVEN TIMES and then trying to recall all THIRTY SEVEN entries. :P
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I guess that a difference in character creation style. I don't go "I'm making a cleric, must find the strongest domain possible!" I go "I'm making a cleric of x god, I'll look at the three domains they have and see which I like best."As for having open pdfs, you are obviously being facetious.Not in the least: trying to pick out alchemy items and cleric domains required multiple open pages to compare. You can't glance down a simple list and compare the descriptions since nothing is placed with like items. Even spells required several pages open to see what everything did. It's sad, but opening up 30+ pdf's was easier than diving head first into the domain list then the spell section then back to the domain list, then the spell list... THIRTY SEVEN TIMES and then trying to recall all THIRTY SEVEN entries. :P
Not the strongest, but the power I like the most. I want a useful and likable ability, so I look though the abilities and see which god gives that domain... Add to that the existence of Expanded Domain[Advanced Domain] and it's not just picking ONE domain I like but three[6] I might want to take. For myself, I'm not going to pick a random god and hope it has assume it has one domain power I like/want [let alone 3{or 6}].
In the future, don't assume that just because someone doesn't build a character like you that they are doing so for the pure power of it all. If all I wanted was power I could have stopped at Healing [Healer's Blessing, Healing Font, healing hands]... 1/2 wis + cha + 4 channels to use that heal 3d8 + wis in a 30' radius at 4th.
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I have been playing PF1 from the start and 3.0/3.5 before. I love building characters with wonky combinations min maxing not so useful numbers.
I had approximately 6 build concepts I wanted to create with the playtest rules. After spending too much time flipping through pages trying to figure out the best way to build the first one : a Barbarian/Cleric multiclass, I just gave up on playtest character creation. Forever.
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Alexa sucks, in my experience.Since we're talking about heaps of dice, I suggest you ask your Amazon Echo... "Alexa, roll 1,000 dice." ;)What sort of dice is she rolling o.o she gave me 54 and 690. For 1000 dice.
Yeh, the last time I asked her to roll 1,000 dice, she read off the results of each die individually... 2,6,3,4,4,1, etc.
I still think needing to look through them all shows a mechanics first approach that is different from my concept first approach, whether or not power plays into it all.
For me, it's concept too but not the same type: I'm looking for a cleric that can do x,y,z and I see what mechanics/god fits that need as opposed to you that seems to pick a cleric of god x and works within those confines. I personally like to make sure my character can actually do what my concept is because a cool/interesting concept doesn't always translate well into mechanics. Both are valid ways, but you of course need to look up less.
However, as it is a new game system and a playtest I'd have wanted to look through those options anyway: I might want to try something I didn't think of to start that I thought needing testing [seemed too strong/weak, odd mechanics, ect].
I hope with the seperation of the Powers chapter from Spells
*nods*
because putting them right next to where they are first referenced will actually make those entries horrible to read
I don't really agree with this. I didn't find class feats being with the class an issue so I don't see an issue with powers too.
gone would that nice neat little table of domains
I don't see why you can't have both.
Oops, I forgot that manipulate also interacted with grabbed condition, "If you attempt a manipulate action, activity, free action, or reaction while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; attempt the check after using it but before any effects are applied." And I am the GM, the person who has to know exactly...While I'm on the subject, I clicked through manipulate in the Playtest rulebook. It also is stopped by things like Animal Form and Dragon Form, isn't stopped by free-hand weapons like cestuses and gauntlets, loses you more air underwater, and is hampered by entangled, grappled, and restrained.
You don't need to know any of this by default.
That was a fascinating list of places where I did not remember that manipulate mattered. I decided to search for that word myself and find more.
For example, page 358 declares that Strike actions made with alchemical bombs gain manipulate. This also applies to throwing magical acorn bombs created by the primal Fire Seeds spell on page 224, though throwing them is not said to be an attack.
Fifteen transformations--2 by barbarian feats and 13 by spells--warn that the GM determines whether they prevent some manipulate activities. One transformation, Gaseous Form, definitely prevents manipulate activities.
Retrained condition outright prevents attacks and manipulate activities except for Break Grapple and Escape. However, neither Break Grapple nor Escape are attacks or manipulate activities. I guess that might matter if someone is trying to escape by some means that adds a manipulate trait, but I don't see a way to add manipulate to Break Grapple or Escape. They don't involve throwing bombs or playing a musical instrument.
The Strike from an Attack of Opportunity disrupts a manipulate action. Drop has manipulate trait. Thus, we see why Valeros in the Iconic Encounter Hold My Beer, did not drop his beer tankard, even after it was empty. Not only would dropping it have triggered an Attack of Opportunity from his foes, but it would have also remained in his hand when the Attack of Opportunity disrupted the Drop free action. (Or maybe not: the trigger says "manipulate action" not "manipulate free action." But if that logic applies, then a two-action manipulate activity would not trigger an Attack of Opportunity either.)
A regular Strike has no text that says it disrupts a manipulate action. Disrupting Spells on page 196 and Disrupting Activations on page 277 have additional rules that a reaction can disrupt spellcasting or activating, but only if enough damage is dealt. Concentrating on a Spell, page 197, can also be disrupted by damage. Attacks of Opportunity have no damage requirement to disrupt. Remember that when someone readies a Strike to try to disrupt something besides spellcasting, spell concentration, or activation, such as loading a crossbow or disabling a trap: it won't work. Page 297 mentions that a Leap or item transfer can be disrupted, but the rules allow that only with an Attack of Opportunity, not a Readied reaction.
I found 62 separate entries that involved manipulate trait. This overlooks spells that have manipulate hidden in Material Casting or Somatic Casting and feats that have manipulate hidden in a Interact action. For example, Quick Draw says, "You draw a weapon with the Interact action, then Strike with the weapon you just drew," so it has manipulate for the draw part of it.
A few activities were surprising in that they lacked manipulate. Striking with a bow, which involves drawing an arrow, notching the arrow, pulling back the bowstring, and shooting, is not manipulate. It does trigger an Attack of Opportunity as a ranged attack, but it not disrupted by the Attack of Opportunity. Climbing is not manipulate, though it occupies hands and might involve gripping rope.
1. page 48, Alchemical Savant, alchemist feat 1, enables identifying with manipulate.
2. page 50, Revivifying Mutagen, alchemits feat 10, enables healing with manipulate.
3. page 57, Animal Rage, barbarian feat 8, transformation might impede manipulate.
4. page 60-61, Dragon Transformation, barbarian feat 16, transformation might impede manipulate.
5. page 61, Quaking Stomp, barbarian feat 20, manipulate action.
** page 73, Dream domain--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 83, Woodland Stride--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
6. page 87, Attack of Opportunity, fighter class feature, reaction triggered by manipulate.
7. page 109, Warded Touch, paladin feat 1, lay on hands loses manipulate.
8. page 111, Attack of Opportunity, paladin feat 6, reaction triggered by manipulate.
9. page 122, Poison Weapon, rogue feat 4, manipulate action.
10. page 124, Reactive Distraction, rogue feat 20, manipulate reaction.
** page 138, Enchantment--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
11. page 144, Grap Edge, Acrobatics, manipulate reaction.
12. page 147, Repair, Crafting, manipulate activity.
13. page 148, Craft, Crafting, manipulate activity.
14. page 148, Create a Diversion, Deception, action that might be manipulate.
15. page 149, Impersonate, Deception, manipulate activity.
16. page 152, Administer First Aid, Medicine, manipulate action.
17. page 152, Treat Disease, Medicine, manipulate activity.
18. page 152, Treat Poison, Medicine, manipulate activity.
19. page 155, Performance Traits, Performance, playing an instruments gives an activity manipulate.
20. page 158, Conceal an Object, Stealth, manipulate action.
21. page 159, Palm an Object, Thievery, manipulate action.
22. page 159, Steal an Object, Thievery, manipulate action.
23. page 159, Disable a Device, Thievery, manipulate action.
24. page 159, Pick a Lock, Thievery, manipulate action.
** page 160-162, Table of General and Skill feats lists traits, such as manipulate.
25. page 163, Battle Medic, skill feat 1, manipulate action.
26. page 169, Pickpocket, skill feat 1, enables 2 manipulate actions to steal in combat.
27. page 171, Scribe Scroll, skill feat 1, manipulate activity.
28. page 173, Train Animal, skill feat 1, manipulate activity.
29. page 173, Trick Magic Item, skill feat 1, manipulate action.
30. page 182, Free-Hand, Weapon Trait, allows manipulating with hand using weapon.
31. page 186, Manacles, Adventuring Gear, impedes manipulate.
32. page 195, Material Casting, Spellcasting Actions, manipulate action.
33. page 196, Somatic Casting, Spellcasting Actions, manipulate action.
** page 198, Walls--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
34. page 203, Aerial Form, spell 4, transformation might impede manipulate.
** page 204, Alter Reality, spell 10--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
35. page 204-205, Animal Form, spell 3, transformation might impede manipulate.
36. page 206, Avatar, spell 10, transformation might impede manipulate.
37. page 216, Dinosaur Form, spell 4, transformation might impede manipulate.
38. page 218, Dragon Form, spell 6, transformation might impede manipulate.
39. page 220, Elemental Form, spell 5, transformation might impede manipulate.
40. page 224, Fire Seeds, spell 6, enables throwing a fire-seed bomb as a manipulate action.
41. page 226, Gaseous Form, spell 4, transformation definitely impedes manipulate.
42. page 232, Insect Form, spell 3, transformation might impede manipulate.
43. page 239-240, Monstrosity Form, spell 8, transformation might impede manipulate.
44. page 240-241, Nature Incarnate, spell 10, transformation might impede manipulate.
45. page 242-243, Overwhelming Presence, spell 9, enables paying tribute as a manipulate or move action.
46. page 244, Pest Form, spell 2, transformation might impede manipulate.
47. page 245, Plant Form, spell 5, transformation might impede manipulate.
** page 245, Possession, spell 7--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
48. page 246, Primal Herd, spell 10, transformation might impede manipulate.
49. page 252-253, Righteous Might, spell 6, transformation might impede manipulate.
** page 306, Turns--quotes Attack of Opportunity as an example.
50. page 307, Drop, Basic Action, manipulate free action.
51. page 307, Interact, Basic Action, manipulate action. (Hey, this action is 100% manipulate.)
52. page 308, Point Out, Basic Action, manipulate action.
53. page 315, Drowning and Suffocation, Aquatic Combat, attacks and manipulate cost twice as much air.
54. page 321, Entangled, Conditions, manipulate requires DC 5 flat check.
55. page 322, Grabbed, Conditions, manipulate requires DC 5 flat check.
56. page 324, Restrained, Conditions, cannot attack or manipulate except Break Grapple or Escape (which are not attacks nor manipulate).
** page 327, Adjudicating the Rules, Running a Game Session--manipulate as example of necessary trait for a made-up action.
** page 333, Checks, Downtime--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 341, Triggering a Hazard, Hazards--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
57. page 358, Alchemical Bombs, Alchemical Items, "Strikes made to throw alchemical bombs gain the manipulate trait."
58. page 376, Operate Activation, Activating Magic Items, manipulate action.
59. page 377, Invest an Item, Investing Magic Items, manipulate action.
60. page 390, Fighter's Fork, item 5, can be shortened as an manipulate Interact action.
61. page 411, Third Eye, item 19--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 414, Air, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 414, Chaotic, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 415, Earth, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 415, Evil, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 415, Fire, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 415, Free-Hand, Appendix 1 Traits--repeat of Free-Hand weapon trait from page 182.
** page 416, Good, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 416, Lawful, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
62. page 416, Manipulate, Appendix 1 Traits, official definition of manipulate trait.
** page 417, Negative, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 417, Plant, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 418, Positive, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 418, Shadow, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
** page 419, Water, Appendix 1 Traits--uses "manipulate" as English word, not keyword.
I will add on that Drop doesn't provoke reactions, explicitly in its description.
But yes, manipulate is very heavily seeded into massive sections of the rules.
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I will add on that Drop doesn't provoke reactions, explicitly in its description.
I wonder why Drop was given manipulate trait and then made immune to its most common interaction. I can understand the champion's lay on hands having manipulate but being given immunity through Warded Touch, because it is a focus spell so naturally gains manipulate through Somatic Casting. But Drop?
Fortunately, I now have a list of what manipulate does:
Attack of Opportunity triggered by and disrupts manipulate actions - Drop had special immunity.
Transformation could prevent manipulate actions - GM would likely rule that Drop is still enabled.
Gaseous Form prevents manipulate actions - This affects Drop but seems trival.
Manipulating underwater uses more air - Drop is a free action, so this has no effect.
Entangle and Grabbed condition and Manacles force DC 5 flat check on manipulate - This affects Drop but seems unrealistic.
Restrained condition prevents manipulate - This affects Drop but seems unrealistic.
Action literally manipulates an item - Drop barely touches the item.
So Gaseous Form, Entangled, Grabbed, Restrained, and shackled by manacles are the only differences from granting manipulate trait to Drop. I guess it stops a gaseous enemy from releasing a bomb, but that could have been more clearly written as Gaseous Form prevents throwing and dropping items, too.
I think the most soul-crushing roll I've ever seen was one of my players rolling 13 0's on 18 dice... on a damage roll, the one kind of roll where 0's only count as a single success. XD
I know this is some serious necroposting, but I was looking through my favorited comments saw this and my brain kind of started to melt. I remember reading this, feeling awful for your player for his bad luck and faving the comment. On seeing it a second time, there are no 0's on a d10 the 0 is the 10 - so your player had 13 successes + the damage of the weapon. Now I don't feel bad for them at all.