Spell Perfection and adding extra metamagics

[Kane6032]

My blaster arcanist has spell perfection (Disintigrate) and I was wondering if the one free metamagic AND the added metamagics can not exceed 9th level or if the spell level + the free metamagic cannot exceed 9th level.

Tell me if my calculation here is wrong (magical lineage is ML and spell perfection is SP):

Disintegrate + SP (maximize) + empower + intensified + ML (elemental) = 9th

And what if I had the magic lineage trait, does that allow me to use quickened with spell perfected Disintegrate?

Second calculation:
Disintegrate + SP & ML(quicken) + empower + intensified = 9th

Thanks!

[Isaac Zephyr]

According to Spell Perfection: "total modified level" so basically you are correct. So long as the final post-math result doesn't exceed spell level 9 you're okay.

Magical Lineage however doesn't apply to a specific metamagic feat, it just reduces overall by 1. So your two maths:

Example 1: Disintegrate (6) + (Maximize (3) + Spell Perfection (-3)) + Empower (2) + Intensify (1) + Elemental (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
6 + (3-3) + 2 + 1 + 1 - 1 = 9

Example 2: Disintegrate (6) + (Quickened (4) + Spell Perfection (-4)) + Empower (2) + Intensify (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
6 + (4-4) + 2 + 1 -1 = 8

Spell Perfection basically negates the cost of whichever metamagic you're applying it to specifically. I use this on a Shocking Grasp character to have multiple levels where I can prep various versions of the spell with varying levels of modification.

Example: Shocking Grasp (1) + (Empowered (2) + Spell Perfection (-2)) + Intensify (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
1 + (2-2) + 1 - 1 = 1

Shocking Grasp (1) + (Intensify (1) + Spell Perfection (-1)) + Empower (2) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
1 + (1-1) + 2 - 1 = 2

[willuwontu]

Quote:

Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.

You can't go over 9 at all with the adjusted spell level prior to the application of spell perfection, so neither of those are allowed.

Magical lineage reduces the modified level however, so spell perfection with magical lineage would allow a quickened intensified cone of cold to be cast as a 5th level spell.

Essentially, you apply your metamagics to the spell (along with reductions like magical lineage and wayang), this cannot exceed 9th level, then you apply spell perfection reducing the cost of one metamagic applied to the spell. Typically to the highest, but if you want to make intensify free over dazing or quickened, feel free to do so.

[Isaac Zephyr]

willuwontu wrote:

Quote:

Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.

You can't go over 9 at all with the adjusted spell level prior to the application of spell perfection, so neither of those are allowed.

Willu, that's incorrect. Spell Perfection negates the level modification. I italicized the relevant parts that state this from your quote.

Basically it's a reiteration of normal metamagic rules. You can't make a spell higher than 9th level and still cast it. If it said "unmodified", as certain other feats do, then you would be correct. I had to double check myself before I answered.

[MrCharisma]

I agree with willuwontu.

It's not 100% clear, but if you could apply spell perfection to maximize a 9th level spell they wouldn't need to put in the clause about "total modified level" since people don't have 12th level spell-slots.

I've always read it as: "What would the level be without Spell-Perfection? That level has to be 9th level or below."

[willuwontu]

Isaac Zephyr wrote:

Basically it's a reiteration of normal metamagic rules. You can't make a spell higher than 9th level and still cast it. If it said "unmodified", as certain other feats do, then you would be correct. I had to double check myself before I answered.

If it said unmodified, then that means metamagics affecting it wouldn't count towards the level of determining whether spell perfection works, only the level of the spell would, which would be silly since spells only go up to the 9th level.

I do not believe Spell Perfection allows for quickened wish or empowered banshee wail.

[Perfect Tommy]

Isaac has it right. I believe there are a variety of mods out there that procr the point,

[MrCharisma]

Well we've got 2 yay and 2 nay ... anyone else want to weigh in?

[Claxon]

It could easily be read either way.

It would however mean that spell perfection would be a waste on 9th level spells if we interpret it in willuwontu's way.

Perhaps we can attract the attention of a dev to comment with their opinion, or look at 3.5 FAQ if there's a clarification.

[ryric]

I'd go with this:

FAQ wrote:

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

To me, the intent seems clear that you can't construct a spell that would be over 9th level if all the metamagic adjustments applied.

[Isaac Zephyr]

ryric wrote:

I'd go with this:

FAQ wrote:

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

To me, the intent seems clear that you can't construct a spell that would be over 9th level if all the metamagic adjustments applied.

Specific trumps general though, and Spell Perfection specifically states it doesn't alter the spell's level, which is part of the benefits of the (rather expensive late game) feat.

[LordKailas]

I think order of operations is important.

Spell Perfection seems to apply it's benefit when you are in the act of casting the spell. This means that whatever spell slot got used to memorize said spell has already been expended.

For this reason, any adjustments you've made to the spell are already in effect and have been applied. Something like magical lineage kicks in when you apply a metamagic feat to a spell. I'm sure the intention is for this bonus to only apply once meaning the only time spell perfection will benefit from magical lineage is if the spell being cast has not already been modified by a metamagic feat.

So, lets look at the original example

Disintegrate(6th) + empower(+2) + intensified(+1) + elemental(+1) +ML(-1) = 9th

Now, casting this spell uses a 9th level spell slot and Spell Perfection kicks in. We can at this point apply any metamagic that has a +0 to it for free since we are already at a 9th level spell. We could remove any one of the feats we applied however say empower making it.

Disintegrate(6th) + intensified(+1) + elemental(+1) +ML(-1) = 7th

memorize this as a 7th level spell. Then when we cast it we can use spell perfection to apply the empower metamagic to it since now we could apply any one metamagic feat to it up to a +2 for free.

Another option is to cast disintegrate as an unmodified 6th level spell. Thanks to magical lineage we could then use spell perfection to apply any one metamagic feat up to a +4 when we cast it.

[Xenocrat]

Man, I never thought I'd see people in 2019 still arguing that Spell Perfection lets you go past 9th level spells. There are plenty of threads on this, I didn't realize there were still survivors hiding in the jungles who hadn't gotten the word.

[willuwontu]

Xenocrat wrote:

Man, I never thought I'd see people in 2019 still arguing that Spell Perfection lets you go past 9th level spells. There are plenty of threads on this, I didn't realize there were still survivors hiding in the jungles who hadn't gotten the word.

To be fair, I can see why they argue that, and the feat could be worded better.

[Perfect Tommy]

Xenocrat wrote:

Man, I never thought I'd see people in 2019 still arguing that Spell Perfection lets you go past 9th level spells. There are plenty of threads on this, I didn't realize there were still survivors hiding in the jungles who hadn't gotten the word.

To be fair, one could say the same if your position.