Questions on Troop Subtype

[GenericFighter]

I have a few questions on the troop sub-type, mostly on targeting

It takes up a 20ft by 20ft square. So 16 squares. DO I understand correctly that they can be any 16 squares as long as they connect?

Targeting immunity:

"A troop is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate and multiple target spells such as haste), though it is affected by spells or effects that target an area or a nonspecific number of creatures (such as fireball or mass hold monster)."

This confuses me as Mass Hold Monster does specify a number of creatures : one or more creatures no two of which can be more than 30ft apart

Or is the point there isn't a maximum number to this?

What about something like kinetic blast: "a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet."

So I read this as not really working. But using kinetic blade turns it into a weapon so should function like anyone else attacking in combat?

But officially a shot with a bow or strike with a sword has a single target? So why would these work?

It is all quite confusing

[InvisiblePink]

Mass Hold Monster targets a 'nonspecific number of creatures' because there is no upper bounds to how many creatures it can affect, as long as they're all within 30 feet of one another.

Kinetic Blast would not affect a troop because it targets a specific number of creatures (that is, 'a single target'). Kinetic Blade would in fact work, as you're making attacks against the troop.

Think of it this way: the Troop rules are a kludgey, inelegant way to stop spells like Flesh to Stone from suddenly affecting (what is flavored as) many people at once, since it wouldn't make sense from a fluff perspective why one person being turned to stone ought to take down that person's comrades too.

However, obviously weapon attacks still have to have an effect! If they didn't, it'd be flatly impossible for a godlike swordsman to take down a small mob of peasants with pitchforks, and that would be absurd. So weapon attacks must be allowed to affect a Troop. If need be, you can abstract each attack as cutting down multiple lesser foes.

All the other weirdness, like Blast not working but Blade being fine, is an unintended consequence of those interactions.

[Evilserran]

Yea its weird but RAW kinetic blast is not useful against troops despite this line

"Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms) "

However, its worth dicussing it with a gm, as even in pfs i have been allowed to use it to attack troops, if its blasting everything inthe 5foot area, it would definitely hurt the troop, but YMMV as RAW it doesnt.

[GenericFighter]

Yes I gathered weapons would work but the logic that allows them to work suggests things like kinetic blast, shocking grasp and magic missile should work. But these have fixed numbers of targets

So it does go along with my thoughts that the rules clash together a big weirdly

I mean in the case of a blast the amount of damage it does a mid to high levels would equate to the theoretical killing of multiple enemies in one hit

Say 100 HP troop, 40 damage, 20 people in it - in theory 8 people killed with one blast - which a blast cannot do normally - so why should it be able to just because they are an organised military unit. If anything it should be less effective. But exactly the same logic applies to a power attack greatsword strike for circa 30 points of damage

The rules seem strange but of course so is HP as an abstraction.

>

(The kinetic blast vs. swarms is actually a bit of a low blow for every single other class in the game that are restricted by swarms.

There should be a middle ground where most other classes are slightly better at fighting swarms at low levels and kineticists don't burst out laughing at them (I suppose alchemists also have few issues))

[InvisiblePink]

The rules are very weird, but you understand them perfectly. This is often the case in Pathfinder. I'm not sure how else the Rules Questions forum can help you.

[Matthew Downie]

InvisiblePink wrote:

However, obviously weapon attacks still have to have an effect! If they didn't, it'd be flatly impossible for a godlike swordsman to take down a small mob of peasants with pitchforks, and that would be absurd. So weapon attacks must be allowed to affect a Troop.

Weapons don't work. A weapon attack is an effect that targets a single creature.

If we're not going by RAW, kinetic blasts should work too. If we're going to make up a non-existent rule that weapon attacks affect troops, we might as well apply it to other kinds of attack.

(I don't like the Troop rules. Does it show?)

[Lanathar]

It seems like troops should have some kind of half damage or relatively high DR/- to account for one strike vs. Multiple people...

[Adjoint]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Weapons don't work. A weapon attack is an effect that targets a single creature.

I don't think that a weapon attack is an effect at all. Rules don't clearly define what is "an effect" (except for staing that spells have effects), so I assume we're supposed to use common sense.

[deuxhero]

Remember attacking is very abstract. You aren't swinging/shooting once or twice every 6 seconds (unless you're a gunslinger/crossbow user), you're getting one opportunity for an effective hit every 6 seconds. When fighting a troop you are simply smashing a bunch of enemies away like a musou character. (Remember for most swarms the CR floor is 7. You're no longer a "normal" fighter at that point.).

[doomman47]

So even a troop of 15 people who get hit with a spell that can target 15 or more people are immune to the effects? That's just dumb.