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A few issues arose today.
1: The wording of "Building New Constructs"
Is this newly built constructs, or newly designed. Is a freshly animated chair a new construct because it was just created? Or is it not a new construct because animated chair already exist?
2: Animated objects are constructs, and as such they can have extra special abilities crafted into them, beyond the SQ Construction Points. True? False?
3: There is a guideline showing you can add special abilities to constructs at the cost of increased CR.
3a: Are these the spoken of special abilities?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rule s
3b: Can I apply those to an animated object, since it is a Construct, by increasing the CR?
3c: Can I upgrade an already built construct with these special abilities?
3d: Can I apply SQ Construction Points to any construct? Would they gain CP based on size, or just the standard +2 CP per +1 CR?
(I understand some abilities shouldn't be applied, I'm not trying to be OP I'm just trying to make unique constructs the way the rules/guidelines state.)
Also what of templates and subtypes? What do they cost? I've seen the pre-constructed animated objects have such things added using CP.
(Not sure if bumping is allowed)
Can anyone help me?
1) You didn't build the animated chair, you cast a spell on it.
2) You can cast Animate Object on an unfinished construct and it will have exactly the stats the spell gives it and nothing more. You want the construct to have special properties or abilities, pay for them with gold and time as indicated in the rules. No short cuts.
3a) No. Refer to Craft Construct and specific construct creature monster entries to see what you are allowed to do.
3b) No. Just what the spell says.
3c) By paying additional gold and time and meeting the new DC check? Sure. If the construct could add those abilities when constructed. You can't animate an object and then start trying to improve it.
3d) Follow the rules given under Craft Construct if you are crafting a construct, or whatever spell or ability you are using. Do not attempt to mix rules from one method to another.
Meirril wrote: 1) You didn't build the animated chair, you cast a spell on it.
2) You can cast Animate Object on an unfinished construct and it will have exactly the stats the spell gives it and nothing more. You want the construct to have special properties or abilities, pay for them with gold and time as indicated in the rules. No short cuts.
3a) No. Refer to Craft Construct and specific construct creature monster entries to see what you are allowed to do.
3b) No. Just what the spell says.
3c) By paying additional gold and time and meeting the new DC check? Sure. If the construct could add those abilities when constructed. You can't animate an object and then start trying to improve it.
3d) Follow the rules given under Craft Construct if you are crafting a construct, or whatever spell or ability you are using. Do not attempt to mix rules from one method to another.
Sorry but you must not be familiar with Craft Construct, or animated objects (beyond those of the spell)
I did say this was an advanced question.
Please read this and familiarize yourself with crafting animated objects.
Building and Modifying Constructs
Animated Object
Hoping someone today can help.
1) Building New Constructs is referring to using the monster creation rules for making new ones, crafting constructs usually uses already designed ones.
2) If using Craft Construct, yes you can modify them with construct modifications as shown on Archives of Nethys. Though using this on animated objects that are temporary because they're made with the spell wouldn't be worth it at all. Permanency could help, but that can be dispelled, crafting them is superior.
3abc) The guidelines for making custom animated objects with different CP is meant for GMs but you could probably work it out with a PC. Animated Objects get Construction Point abilities, and also animated objects use the basic pricing rules rounded off.
3d) Animated Objects created with the spell have the specified amount of CP for their size, no more no less. Likewise, the bestiary lists that you can add templates to monsters and increase their CR, but the summon monster spells and their ilk do not allow you to summon monsters with templates despite not saying otherwise. This is made even more clear in the mythic version of animate objects.
Quote: Animated objects you create with this spell get the maximum number of hit points per level, gain a +4 bonus to their Strength ability scores, and have 1–1/2 times the normal number of construction points. This shows that the animated objects only have the normal amount of CP when created with the spell. If you craft them, you could increase them using those rules however.
Drithlan wrote:
Sorry but you must not be familiar with Craft Construct, or animated objects (beyond those of the spell)
I did say this was an advanced question.
Please read this and familiarize yourself with crafting animated objects.
Building and Modifying Constructs
Animated Object
I am familiar with the rules you linked. I'm telling you that you can't start with a spell and then add more CP, HD, CR, or other abilities by paying gold. Either you do what the spell says or you follow the craft construct rules. You can't do a hybrid to save money or enchantment time.
If you have a more specific question, try asking that.
Why do you people keep thinking I'm taking about the spell?
Please. Read what I wrote, read the rules and guidelines again. Come back with more insight.
I'm not trying to be rude, but i am asking about crafting here not the spell. Your statements have fallacies in them showing you are not as familiar with the rules and guidelines as you think.
I'm not mad at you, or trying to be rude, but these are advanced knowledge questions.
One or two of which most likely cannot be answered by anyone short of the dev team. (Aka Question 1)
Please don't take this message wrong, but I'm looking for an answer that is correct, or at the very least makes sense.
Quote: 1: The wording of "Building New Constructs"
Is this newly built constructs, or newly designed. Is a freshly animated chair a new construct because it was just created? Or is it not a new construct because animated chair already exist?
Quote: Building New Constructs
Constructs typically have no Intelligence score, an average Wisdom score, and a Charisma of 1. Their dexterity is usually poor to average, though exceptionally nimble constructs do exist. Nearly all constructs of size Medium or larger have high Strength scores; constructs never have a Constitution score.
The monster creation rules serve as your best guide for designing a new construct. New constructs should stick fairly close to the those presented on Table: Monster Statistics by CR. As they are usually mindless combat brutes, most use the “high attack” column, with damage falling in between the High and Low average damage columns. Note that all the construct’s saving throws are likely to be poor, and they have no favored saves. Lacking a Constitution score, a construct’s hit points also tend to be low in comparison to creatures with similar CRs. Consider giving any construct that doesn’t have either damage reduction or hardness a higher AC to compensate.
willuwontu wrote: 1) Building New Constructs is referring to using the monster creation rules for making new ones, crafting constructs usually uses already designed ones. Huh.
Quote: 2: Animated objects are constructs, and as such they can have extra special abilities crafted into them, beyond the SQ Construction Points. True? False? Quote: Animated objects have a number of Construction Points (CP) used to purchase abilities and defenses in addition to those presented above. A medium animated object has 2 CP; differently sized objects have CP totals as detailed on the size chart on this page. If an animated object spends more CP than its size category would allow, its CR increases by 1 (minimum of +1) for every 2 additional CP spent. (Abilities marked with a * are from sources other than the core rulebook) Quote: Construct Modifications
Standard constructs can be modified to enhance their base abilities, alter their appearance or function, or perform a variety of tasks beyond the intentions of their basic designs. Performing a modification provides a construct’s creator with a simple way to create a unique construct. A modification can only be performed while the construct is inanimate or nonfunctioning. Performing modifications on one’s own construct requires the Craft Construct feat, and the creator must pay any additional crafting requirements and/or costs associated with the modification. Completing a modification requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the modification’s base price (minimum 1 day).
willuwontu wrote: 2) If using Craft Construct, yes you can modify them with construct modifications as shown on Archives of Nethys. Though using this on animated objects that are temporary because they're made with the spell wouldn't be worth it at all. Permanency could help, but that can be dispelled, crafting them is superior. I was not talking about ones made by the spell only, I was noting that ones made by the spell sucked for modifying them.
Quote: 3: There is a guideline showing you can add special abilities to constructs at the cost of increased CR.
3a: Are these the spoken of special abilities?
I assume you refer to the lines in this section.
Quote: Pricing a New Construct
This section provides guidelines for those seeking to calculate the costs of crafting their own constructs. As a rough guideline, a construct’s price is equal to its challenge rating squared, then multiplied by 500 gp. Constructs with a fractional CR rating base their price on that fraction of 500 gp. For example, a CR 1/2 construct has a price of 250 gp. The cost of magical supplies for the Craft Construct feat is half this price, with the construct taking 1 day to create per 1,000 gp of the construct’s base price. Some constructs, particularly golems, have additional raw material costs that must be paid in full, regardless of whether the creator possesses the Craft Construct feat. Raw materials typically cost somewhere between 5% and 10% of the construct’s base price.
Constructs with multiple special abilities cost more to create. The first special ability is included in the construct’s base cost. The next two special abilities increase the calculated price by +1/2 CR per ability. Thereafter, any additional special abilities add +1 CR per ability. Examples of special abilities include having a higher DR value than a typical construct of its CR (above DR 5 for CRs 1–8, above DR 10 for CR 9+), monster statistics that exceed those recommended for the construct’s CR, the standard golem immunity to magic, DR or hardness that can’t be overcome by all adamantine weapons, ability to be fully healed by a single spell, and most special attacks and special qualities.
Bolded the relevant portion, it can include those rules, but it can also include other things (like increased statistics).
Quote: 3b: Can I apply those to an animated object, since it is a Construct, by increasing the CR? No, that's referring to adding special abilities to new designs for constructs. Animated objects are already designed constructs.
Quote: 3c: Can I upgrade an already built construct with these special abilities? No, that's referring to adding special abilities to new designs for constructs.
Quote: 3d: Can I apply SQ Construction Points to any construct? No, only animated object can use CP. You could design a new construct that does gains them, however it would need to be considered an animated object in order to be allowed access to spend them since the abilities are only available for animated objects.
Quote: Also what of templates and subtypes? What do they cost? I've seen the pre-constructed animated objects have such things added using CP. This is the dev team only question, good luck getting an answer from them. I haven't seen these stat blocks though for pre-constructed animated objects that use CP to buy their templates, so if you could link to them, that'd be great.
Drithlan wrote: Why do you people keep thinking I'm taking about the spell?
Please. Read what I wrote, read the rules and guidelines again. Come back with more insight.
I'm not trying to be rude, but i am asking about crafting here not the spell. Your statements have fallacies in them showing you are not as familiar with the rules and guidelines as you think.
I'm not mad at you, or trying to be rude, but these are advanced knowledge questions.
One or two of which most likely cannot be answered by anyone short of the dev team. (Aka Question 1)
Please don't take this message wrong, but I'm looking for an answer that is correct, or at the very least makes sense.
Ok, fine. Ignoring the spell, just talking about the construction rules.
1) No, "New Constructs" taken in context means "creating a new monster of the construct type".
2) Animated Objects have a set of defined rules. If you want to go beyond those rules you need to consult the rules for creating a new construct as a guideline. If you aren't the GM you need to involve them and honestly the GM should be the one to determine if what you want can be done, and how much it would cost and how much it would raise the DC or how many CP it would cost. Also what prerequisites it would require and if any additional material components are called for. Going beyond the listed rules really is GM territory.
3a) any ability could be added to a creature. Including abilities that do not exist in Pathfinder. So yes, but again we're talking about something that needs a lot of careful thought and trying to find an appropriate balance between the new ability and existing abilities to determine what the CR of the creature with that ability would be. If it can be found in other monsters looking at the CR would give a strong indication of what CR the construct should be.
3b) If you need it for some plot hook, sure. But as a general guideline? No. Players are generally stuck with the rules 'as is' and it takes a lot of careful consideration and understanding what the player wants before you just go allowing rules alterations.
3c) There are rules for adding abilities to already existing constructs. Follow those rules.
3d) This question doesn't make any sense. Crafting a New Construct has nothing to do with CP. All of that is measured in how much each special ability increases the CR of the construct. CP only gets used in Animated Objects. I know you want to mix the two, but that doesn't make any sense here. You can as a GM add more abilities to the list of things that an Animated Object can purchase for CP. Compare the new ability to existing abilities on the list to determine a cost. If in doubt, over price it.
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Are you a player or a DM?
If you're a DM
1. If you use the crafting rules (not the spell) to create an animated chair you can spend construction points (CPs) based on the size of the animated chair to give it any abilities with CP costs. You can even overspend CPs but it makes the resulting construct more expensive. A character can not, by the rules, find an already animated chair and add abilities to it that cost CPs. The abilities with CP costs are only for when the chair is initially being animated (via crafting rules or spell).
2. True, as per the construct modification rules
3. CP abilities can only be added during the creation of a specific kind of construct (animated objects). Once it has been created there are modifications you can add which increase the CR of the construct, but these modifications also cost money.
3a. those are abilities, but I don't understand your question. The only abilities you can add using the building and modifying construct rules are the ones specifically designated by those same rules.
3b. As a DM you can do whatever you like, however you should be using the monster creation rules at this point. Those rules cover how much a creature's CR should increase by. Depending on the ability you want to add you could even use the race creation rules. There are many ways develop new monsters. As the DM you have the freedom to mix and match as you see fit to make the monster you want. The rules are just guidelines. If you know exactly what you want you can just make the creature have whatever you want it to have and compare it to similar monsters to figure out what it's CR should be.
3c. again, as a DM you can do whatever you want since you are beyond the bounds of the building and modifying constructs rules.
3d. As a DM, you certainly can, the rules are just guidelines and if the abilities you want to add have CP costs this is a convenient method to make a construct more powerful. For constructs that are not animated objects I would treat them as not having any CP and so any additional abilities would follow the "overspending" rules where every 2 CP you spend increases the construct's CR by 1.
If you are a player
1. When you create an animated object you get a number of CPs you can spend on abilities. The bestiary animated objects are just examples, you don't have to make your animated chair exactly like the one in the bestiary. What matters is the size of the animated object. This will tell you how many CPs you get for free to spend on abilities. Once it's built you can not make modifications to it using the CP method.
2. True, however, you would follow the modification rules. Generally you need to spend feats and money to apply a modification. Some modifications increase a construct's CR but you can ignore these increases as a player since CR at this point only matters to DMs when they are trying to figure out how much XP players get for defeating a creature. Even spells and effects are based on a creature's hitdice not it's CR.
3. There are certain modifications that cost money which also increase the CR of a monster. As a player you can not modify a construct without spending money.
3a. Those are special abilities, but unless the construct already has the ability or you can find a specific modification, spell, feat or character option that grants the ability to your construct then it doesn't can't get it. You could always talk to your DM about adding an ability you want and they might let you do it by basing it off of a similar ability that could normally be added to the construct.
3b. If its an ability listed under the modifying construct rules then yes. If you are building a new animated object and the ability has a CP cost then you can add it at that time. Once an animated object is built, you can not modify it using the CP method. You could talk to your DM and they may allow you to modify an animated object using the CP rules. But normally those rules only apply when an animated object is being created.
3c. Again, if it's an ability listed under the modifying construct rules then yes. Otherwise you will need to talk to your DM and see if they will allow you do this since normally by the rules you can not.
3d. As a player no you can not. I would talk to your DM to see how they want to handle it.
If something doesn't make sense, please ask. Don't just assume that I don't know what I'm talking about. I may have simply misunderstood your question or answered in a way that isn't clear.
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