I wanna make a Pain Taster. Seems fun, and the idea of a dominatrix/sadomasochistic character is up my alley. I'm not sure about a good base class to build into it though.
It's a martial prestige class, so going Warpriest doesn't seem great for the bigger whip damage die. The Rogue has some whip talents, and Cruelty would stack with Sneak Attack, but Diehard, Endurance, and Great Fortitude is all the feats gone, meaning pre-6 the whip isn't a fantastic weapon. Fighter has a bunch of bonus feats, and access to Weapon Training so could take Weapon Mastery Feats like Focused Weapon, but without going full Fighter that's going to be a lot to get the ball rolling.
I dunno, maybe there's an Archtype that'll work well?
Inquisitor for bane I think would be pretty good. Check out the green knight cavalier archetype, it picks up 2 of the 3 feats you listed and is a solid dip.
6 levels of Vigilante (any) get you Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery for a single Vigilante talent (Whip of Vengeance) and there's some other handy stuff in there. Be a half-orc for whips as martial (Caravan Drover) and free Endurance.
My gut is Slayer is your best bet. Some sneak attack. Some extra feats (via talents) and of course full BaB.
Bard, particularly arcane duelist wouldn't be bad either. You would lose out a bit on BaB but it comes with arcane strike and inspire courage to help with that, plus even a few low level spells can be nice. Of course it comes with whip proficiency.
With the feat requirements for the prestige class I think you will have trouble being great with the whip before 6. I'd think hard about a substitute method of attack for those levels.
So, as mentioned, the Half Orc for martial proficiency with the whip, and the free Endurance feat.
Worship Ozranvial, who has the Scorpion Whip as his favored weapon. Take one level of Warpriest for proficiency in your deity's favored weapon and free Weapon Focus with said weapon. Pick up some domains and whatnot in the process.
Kensai Magus could also be an option to acquire EWP Scorpion Whip.
If you don't want to be a Half Orc, you can get Endurance and Diehard from the aforementioned Cavalier dip, or Unbreakable Fighter... both of these give you both of those feats with a one level dip.
Humans can give up their bonus feat for EWP with two weapons via the Military Tradition alternative racial feature. You could grab Whip and Scorpion Whip, if you so choose.
Either way, I would probably use Stygian Slayer or Snakebite Brawler for the main chassis of the build. Just dipping Warpriest or Kensai for the proficiency and free Weapon Focus. And a level of Cavalier or Fighter for the free feats.
6 levels of Vigilante (any) get you Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery for a single Vigilante talent (Whip of Vengeance) and there's some other handy stuff in there. Be a half-orc for whips as martial (Caravan Drover) and free Endurance.
I thought about that one in particular. The downside though, Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack don't stack, which would mean Avenger Vigilante (which is fine, just kind of equivalent to a Fighter in this case) would be the option to go with Cruelty. It also delays taking the first level of Pain Taster until 7 in order to get the most from Whip of Vengeance.
That said, thinking further on it, I think the Unchained Rogue might be the best choice. Free Finesse at 1 to use with the whip, and at 3 Dex-Damage. The big downside being not having whip proficiency until the first Pain Taster level at 6, so wouldn't be able to take the Weapon Training talent to auto-upgrade to Whip Mastery from Scourge. And spending the Combat Trick rogue talent on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) is kind of a waste since as far as I know, getting proficiency from another source doesn't let you auto-retrain the feat choice.
So it's the first 5 levels investing into something without dividends until level 6, (or more accurately 7 when Whip Mastery can be taken) but the rogue talents would be able to diversify the skills a little bit making them a more overall versatile character. I did similar with a Vigilante where they used a tonfa till level 4 before swapping to fists when their Vigilante Talents kicked in.
Technically, the whip qualifies for Slashing Grace, so there's another Dex-Damage route for it, but I think Rogue just to make Cruelty more effective will be the better long-term route. Snakebite Brawler the whip isn't a close group weapon so there's not much synergy, and the Sneak progression is way slower. A few of the other options are nice, but with Pain Taster not being a caster prestige it means at best level 1 and 2 spells which won't be great higher levels.
So one advantage of the Vigilante route is that you could take Lethal Grace to add (eventually) +3 to damage while using dex-to-hit and str to damage, and then twf with whips.
So one advantage of the Vigilante route is that you could take Lethal Grace to add (eventually) +3 to damage while using dex-to-hit and str to damage, and then twf with whips.
Yeah, that's pretty much my fist Vigilante's build. Lethal Grace and Fist of the avenger for (effectively) 3/4 level on damage with the 1d3 fist. In addition to a few other boosts from Boar Style and some Nightmare Fist. Lots of Intimidate.
Something I see this Pain Taster going down. They need the Intim ranks anyway and U Rogue will give skill unlocks for it.
Not sure I'd go TWF though. Since Improved Whip Mastery is granted at Pain Taster 7 (if you already have Whip Mastery which is pretty mandatory for the build), it does leave the character vulnerable at close range, so free hand dagger for safety (and for Masochism fluff-wise) and some more versatility with feats.
There's not a feat route to go down for Fast Healing is there?
Maybe fighter with Calistrian Hunter archetype
Might also consider being a 1/2 orc or hobgoblin with an alternate racial trait for whips
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6 levels of Vigilante (any) get you Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery for a single Vigilante talent (Whip of Vengeance) and there's some other handy stuff in there. Be a half-orc for whips as martial (Caravan Drover) and free Endurance.I thought about that one in particular. The downside though, Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack don't stack, which would mean Avenger Vigilante (which is fine, just kind of equivalent to a Fighter in this case) would be the option to go with Cruelty. It also delays taking the first level of Pain Taster until 7 in order to get the most from Whip of Vengeance.
Im not sure I understand this. Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack are two separate abilities. If you qualify to deal both, then you deal both. If you’ve got 3d4 hidden strike and 1d6 sneak, and you’re flanking, you’d add both to the damage. So I’m not quite sure what you mean by they don’t stack?
Avenger might be the better choice anyway, for the bab and for access to other vigilante talent options. The reasoning above is just confusing to me.
6 levels of Vigilante (any) get you Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery for a single Vigilante talent (Whip of Vengeance) and there's some other handy stuff in there. Be a half-orc for whips as martial (Caravan Drover) and free Endurance.I thought about that one in particular. The downside though, Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack don't stack, which would mean Avenger Vigilante (which is fine, just kind of equivalent to a Fighter in this case) would be the option to go with Cruelty. It also delays taking the first level of Pain Taster until 7 in order to get the most from Whip of Vengeance.Im not sure I understand this. Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack are two separate abilities. If you qualify to deal both, then you deal both. If you’ve got 3d4 hidden strike and 1d6 sneak, and you’re flanking, you’d add both to the damage. So I’m not quite sure what you mean by they don’t stack?
Avenger might be the better choice anyway, for the bab and for access to other vigilante talent options. The reasoning above is just confusing to me.
Unless otherwise stated you can only benefit from one form of Precision damage. The Aldori feat lines have one of the few that specify it stacks with one other form of precision damage, and most Sneak Attack variants say they stack with pre-existing sneak from other sources (though some do not, like the vivisectionist alchemist archtype). Hidden Strike is not Sneak Attack, as similar as it behaves, and has no language to state it stacks with sneak attack or other forms of precision damage.
This is why I didn't end up multiclassing to rogue on a swashbuckler dagger build, because precise strike conflicted with sneak attack, which made it better to stick with the more reliable form of damage.
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Where is that written in the rules?
EDIT: Note that precision damage is not a "bonus" added to the roll, so the bonuses of the same type don't stack rule doesn't apply. It's additional damage. As long as it's coming from a different source, it should stack fine, the same as additional bludgeoning damage would stack with a bludgeoning weapon.
Multiple sources of "Sneak Attack" don't stack unless they say so, because it's the same ability. Hidden Strike is not the same ability as Sneak Attack. Precise Strike is not the same ability as Sneak Attack. I'm not aware of anything in the rules that states those wouldn't be added onto the same attack.
My gut is Slayer is your best bet. Some sneak attack. Some extra feats (via talents) and of course full BaB.
If you can manage the backstory, Ranger Fighting Style: Sarenrae allows Whirlwind Attack as a prereq-free bonus feat at 6th level, which is rather nice with a whip.
Where is that written in the rules?
EDIT: Note that precision damage is not a "bonus" added to the roll, so the bonuses of the same type don't stack rule doesn't apply. It's additional damage. As long as it's coming from a different source, it should stack fine, the same as additional bludgeoning damage would stack with a bludgeoning weapon.
Multiple sources of "Sneak Attack" don't stack unless they say so, because it's the same ability. Hidden Strike is not the same ability as Sneak Attack. Precise Strike is not the same ability as Sneak Attack. I'm not aware of anything in the rules that states those wouldn't be added onto the same attack.
Huh, I read Sirian's Masterstroke backwards. Specifically doesn't stack, not does.
My bad.
Rogue is still a better long-term investment for the character though. Half Vigilante level from Lethal Grace at +3 (+5 at level 20) is always going to be less that +Dex from U Rogue (likely +3-5 on its own before enhancement bonuses). Lethal Grace and Slashing Grace cannot stack since Lethal demands Str to damage.
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Yeah, I don't disagree with Rogue instead of Vigilante. Dex to damage without having to pay for Agile or invest in a feat is really good, and sneak attack is generally superior to hidden strike in most cases. There are potential advantages to going Vigilante, as Vigilante Talents are generally superior to Rogue Talents, but it all depends on personal taste and the specific build. The precision damage thing just threw me, because I have a Vigilante/Strangler Brawler who combines sneak and hidden strike, and I'd never run into anyone saying they wouldn't combine. (I've run into questions about which attacks they'd both apply to, but not whether or not they could both apply to the same attack).
I'm actually thinking the Discretion Specialist archtype for the rogue, just to heavily abuse Opportunity Attacks with the Whip. Fast Talker and No Loose Ends both play into the build (bonus to intimidate from Fast Talker and No Loose Ends preventing Withdraw means trapping people in the whip threat range with trips and other nonsense). However the build needs a bit more reliability in Sneak Attack in order to really benefit from No Loose Ends, and Obfuscate and Evidence Disposal while interesting aren't particularly useful to the character.
Alternatively, the Rake is also good for swapping Sneak Attack dice for free Intimidate, which since this is a Dex build without Power Attack to build into Hurtful and Cornugon Smash is nice to have. The Rake's Smile would only be a little diversity though, and it still suffers from a lack of reliably getting Sneak Attack.
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I went with Gang Up for my reach build unchained rogue (elven branched spear). Combined with Phalanx Formation, if you have two other frontliners in your group, you can sit behind them and sneak attack over them with no cover penalty. It does mean wasting a feat on combat expertise, which in an already feat starved whip build isn’t ideal. A level of snakebite brawler let me avoid the Int requirement for combat expertise and put me 1 level ahead on sneak attack progression.
Get whip proficiency via a racial feature.
1. Warpriest of Ozranvial
Both prerequisite skills, Heal and Intimidate. Gets you proficiency in the Scorpion Whip and increases its damage from 1D4 to 1D6 via Sacred Weapon. Grants Weapon Focus for it, as well. Gives you Orisons and Minor Blessings, plus access to wands from the Cleric spell list.
Note: Ozranvial
Alignment CE
Pantheon Sahkil Tormentors
Areas of Concern Despair, restless spirits, sadism
Domains Destruction, Evil, Madness, Repose
Subdomains Fear, Nightmare, Souls, Torture
Favored Weapon Scorpion whip
Obedience
Torment or berate another sentient creature to instill a sense worthlessness. Gain a +4 profane bonus on Intimidate checks.
2. Unbreakable Fighter
Free Endurance and Diehard prerequisite feats.
3-5. UC Rogue
2D6 Sneak Attack, Dexterity to damage, Rogue Talent.
6+. Pain Taster
You already have Weapon Focus, so you get Whip Mastery here instead. Sneak Attack stacks with Cruelty.
Should be good to go since the Scorpion Whip can do lethal damage from the start.
Alright, so update on the character. It suffers a little from "comes online at X" syndrome, but at around 12 the character is pretty scary.
Level 1, Elf Unchained Rogue (Rake) gives Finesse, took the Human-Raised elven racial trait for Skill Focus (Intimidate), and then Endurance as a step towards the Pain Master. Damage is pretty low level 1 from an 8 Str, but Sneak should supplement some damage, though more likely sneaks will be used for Shaken through the Rake abilities as more of a CC battlefield control build. Traits are Whip Specialist and Memorable to play on the Whip + Intimidate build.
Level 2, Combat Trick for Combat Reflexes, or else just taking the Castling Rogue Talent, whichever one isn't taken now is taken at level 4, though at the moment both don't do much for the build since there's no Whip in it yet.
Level 3, Finesse Training for the Whip, so it'll add Dex to Damage when we get it. Diehard to keep working on Prereqs.
Level 4, Debilitating Injury and whatever we didn't take at 2.
Level 5, Rogue's Edge for Intimidate, so we suddenly become very scary. Great Fortitude as our last prereq so we can take Pain Taster next level.
Level 6, first level of Pain Taster, so free proficiency and Weapon Focus on the Whip. We'll still probably be using the backup weapon though at this point since so Whip Mastery yet. Disciple of Pain and Masochism are nice and will supplement some damage.
Level 7, build comes online with Whip Mastery, Castling pays dividends in that we can fight from behind our allies with cover. We also get Cruelty so our Sneak continues to rise, and DR which is always nice if something gets in our no-no zone where we need to use the backup weapon. AoO trips at the 15 ft. range are going to be key to preventing this.
Level 8, nothing too interesting. Some temp HP is nice for fueling Masochism, but otherwise this is a bit of a boring level.
Level 9, Dazzling Display, everyone's favorite. The class set itself up for Dazzling, and with the Memorable trait, and the free Skill Focus we got, plus Rogue's Edge for Intimidate we just flipped the switch to when this build gets good.
Level 10, Pain Mastery is another Enhancement bonus. This build will likely be belt of Dex boost, headband of Cha boost, and then the extra two from Pain Mastery probably in Con and Wis just for saves.
Level 11, Shatter Defenses. Did someone say Sneak Attack? All our Intimidate stacking for Dazzling now become Sneak Attack all the things, and free Intimidates, and this character is scary as all get out.
Level 12, free Improved Whip Mastery. There is no longer a no-no zone. No one is safe.
Level 13, Greater Whip Mastery, because we're about to double down on tripping and don't want to lose the whip in the process.
Level 14, Sadism will be procing on our AoOs and making Masochism pretty much constantly cheaper on our turns.
Level 15, most campaigns end around here-ish, so there's not as much focus on the main build, it's more expanding our fringe abilities. It's when we finally get to pickup Phalanx Formation and essentially become 30 ft. radius terror from the 3rd skill unlock, and 15 ft. radius of the protected zone for allies.
Level 16, hey we're a rogue again. Unbalancing Trick for free Improved Trip, because the character wasn't mean enough.
Level 17, Unbalancing counts as all the prereqs for Greater Trip. Now we brutally Dazzling, and when they are shaken of worse and try to get away, AoO trip which triggers Combat Reflexes AoO and is attacking a shaken character so they become flat-footed from Shatter Defenses, so the follow up attack also deals Sneak Attack and... Well at this point the image of a tall elven woman whipping the tar out of someone cowering on the floor should be in your head.
Level 18+ Uuhh... I'll think of something to add, but like most characters the final 3 levels is generally just random, cause if 15 was projected end, unless you're playing Wrath of the Righteous 18 is the absolute level cap for most APs.
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Is retraining available to you? If so, I think you can get Whip Mastery online at 3rd, then retrain it to Combat Reflexes when you get your first level of Pain Taster.
EDIT: I missed Diehard in my reworking of it. That would have to stay at 3rd, pushing Whip Mastery to 4.
1)Endurance
1B)Skill Focus (Intimidate)
1B) Weapon Finesse
2) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Whip): Weapon Focus(Whip) as a bonus feat.
3) Diehard
4) Combat Trick: Whip Mastery
5) Great Fortitude
6) Whip Mastery from Pain Taster, retrain Whip Mastery from level 3 to Combat Reflexes
7) Improved Whip Mastery (This is when you hit +5 BAB)
Short of dipping a full-BAB class instead of the 5th level of Unchained Rogue, that's the fastest path to Improved Whip Mastery that I can see. Then retrain it at level 12 into something else.
Is retraining available to you? If so, I think you can get Whip Mastery online at 3rd, then retrain it to Combat Reflexes when you get your first level of Pain Taster.
EDIT: I missed Diehard in my reworking of it. That would have to stay at 3rd, pushing Whip Mastery to 4.
1)Endurance
1B)Skill Focus (Intimidate)
1B) Weapon Finesse
2) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Whip): Weapon Focus(Whip) as a bonus feat.
3) Diehard
4) Combat Trick: Whip Mastery
5) Great Fortitude
6) Whip Mastery from Pain Taster, retrain Whip Mastery from level 3 to Combat Reflexes
7) Improved Whip Mastery (This is when you hit +5 BAB)Short of dipping a full-BAB class instead of the 5th level of Unchained Rogue, that's the fastest path to Improved Whip Mastery that I can see. Then retrain it at level 12 into something else.
Can't get Focus without Proficiency, and that's the issue. Even a race that gives whip as Martial doesn't give it to Rogue who get some select proficiencies outside of Simple. It would take Combat Trick: EWP (Whip) and Weapon Training as both the Rogue Talents, at which point would need to retrain at least the EWP for we'll keep on build with Combat Reflexes. Would still be waiting for 6 for Mastery, and would lose out on having Castling for later (short of two more retrainings which would put it back on the build provided).
I can't guarantee I would have the in-game time for retraining, or access to someone to do it. Without any access to Whip Mastery there isn't a lot of point trying to rush it specifically when it's not really obtainable before 6 anyway.
Seems a lot could be had with the level of Warpriest and that level of Fighter (or Cavalier)... just saying. You give up on 1D6 Sneak Attack damage, and one Rogue Talent, for so much more... like the Blessings from the Evil or Repose domains. Wands and stuff.
Maybe. I don't know.
Seems like the Scorpion Whip sure helps out being worth a damn from the beginning. Sacred Weapon damage and Weapon Focus with the Scorpion Whip sets you straight from the get-go.
Unless you're dead set on staying pure Rogue, I literally don't see the benefits. Rogues don't even have Heal as a class skill to meet the prerequisites for Pain Taster.
Seems a lot could be had with the level of Warpriest and that level of Fighter (or Cavalier)... just saying. You give up on 1D6 Sneak Attack damage, and one Rogue Talent, for so much more... like the Blessings from the Evil or Repose domains. Wands and stuff.
Maybe. I don't know.
Seems like the Scorpion Whip sure helps out being worth a damn from the beginning. Sacred Weapon damage and Weapon Focus with the Scorpion Whip sets you straight from the get-go.
Unless you're dead set on staying pure Rogue, I literally don't see the benefits. Rogues don't even have Heal as a class skill to meet the prerequisites for Pain Taster.
You've made that quite clear.
I contemplated the Warpriest initially, but it's already a 6-level caster, giving up half your levels for a non-magic prestige class means pretty much all your spellcasting is worthless. Additionally only 2+Int skill points mean no skill diversity from the dip (for it, fighter or cavalier), which with needing 2-ranks/level to get the prestige class means the character can't do anything outside the whip. Warpriest abilities also work off of Wis which would add further ability dependence on the character.
That 1d6 of Sneak Attack as a Rake also translates to a potential +5 to Intimidate, which is nothing to sneeze at. And while the second Rogue Talent of Castling is more just a neat synergy with Phalanx Formation which can't be taken until later, the more important grab is Rogue's Edge with Intimidate. Being able to choose between Shaken, Frightened, Panicked, and Cowering as Intimidate goes up in ranks (since it isn't tied directly to Rogue level) provides a crazy amount of battlefield control when you can free Intimidate on a sneak attack with up to +5 per extra die you're willing to give up.
And you don't need Heal as a class skill, only 5 ranks in it. It just means for those first 5 levels the character doesn't get a +3 class bonus to heal, however since Heal isn't the focus of the build at all, those 5 points are probably going to be the only ones.
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City-raised Half-orc gets whip proficiency, not just making it martial. And an intimidate bonus almost as good as skill focus. At least before 10th level. You can always pick up skill focus as well at some point.
EDIT: And if you really want, you can take Shaman’s Apprentice. It trades out the intimidate bonus, but gives you Endurance as a bonus feat. So you can spend the feat you would have used for Endurance to get Skill Focus. Not to even mention the benefit that Sacred Tattoo has for a class like Rogue that has weak saves.
EDIT EDIT: What casting talent are you looking at? Isn’t the only thing you can get with one talent minor magic? So you’re getting a 3/day cantrip. That’s not really very fantastic. Or is there an archetype giving you something better? Otherwise just buy a wand of acid splash or whatever cantrip you want.
Not having time to retrain is a potential issue. You wouldn’t need to find someone with whip Mastery, though. You’d be training away from whip mastery. You’d need someone who could train you in combat reflexes, which should be easier to find. But I’d definitely discuss that plan with you GM to see what they say.
The level of Warpriest gives you Weapon Focus, so you save the Weapon Training Rogue Talent later on.
You can make lethal damage attacks from level one with a D6 Scorpion Whip. With one level of Warpriest. It's not a commitment.
Your build doesn't even touch a whip until entering Pain Taster.
You focus on Intimidate entirely too much. The 1D6 Sneak Attack/ +5 Intimidate both suffer against a whole host of enemies immune to one if not both such things.
You stretch out everything in order to pick up the prerequisite feats that one level of Fighter or Cavalier can give you.
Taking the full BAB, D10 hit dice, Fighter or Cavalier level first may be best... picking up both Endurance and Diehard at level 1 isn't a bad thing, ever. Use a Bardiche or greatsword.
Then a level of Warpriest, for Scorpion Whip Sacred Weapon and Weapon Focus.
Then all the UnChained Rogue Rake stuff for the Cruelty Rogue Talent and the Dexterity to damage before entering Pain Taster.
Either way gets you into whipping it good faster than just UC Rogue Rake/Pain Taster...
What casting talent are you looking at?
Castling, with an L. It allows when you're behind an ally instead of providing partial cover it's proper cover. Added to Phalanx Formation which takes away my enemy's partial cover and essentially it makes it that there's no penalties for the character being a reach shield.
The Warpriest lv could easily be replaced by Kensai Magus lv. To use Int instead of Wis.
Just giving an option.
Could, I looked into that too.
Right now, the build needs Dex for combat, Con for HP to pour into Masochism (since 8/4 for a +2 to hit and +5 to damage it still a pretty heavy cost that 1-2 extra points a level will help), and Cha just to have a decent Intimidate since the build has no Str.
Essentially adding Int to that spreads things a bit too thin for my liking. Same as Wis. Even though it would indirectly save me a feat choice. Granted I've got 12 on the build just for being an Elf (which was 13 when I was trying to work Combat Expertise and Gang Up into the build).
Still though, Kensai gives up Light Armor, so all its spells would have failure chance, meaning that benefit is moot, and 1 Arcane Pool point isn't going to do horribly must. It becomes a level dip for a free feat and a +1 to AC, which on a personal level doesn't seem like the greatest investment compared to getting Rogue's Edge, which is also essentially a free feat, though working towards the character's more versatile options.
The level of Warpriest gives you Weapon Focus, so you save the Weapon Training Rogue Talent later on.
You can make lethal damage attacks from level one with a D6 Scorpion Whip. With one level of Warpriest. It's not a commitment.
Your build doesn't even touch a whip until entering Pain Taster.
You focus on Intimidate entirely too much. The 1D6 Sneak Attack/ +5 Intimidate both suffer against a whole host of enemies immune to one if not both such things.
You stretch out everything in order to pick up the prerequisite feats that one level of Fighter or Cavalier can give you.
Taking the full BAB, D10 hit dice, Fighter or Cavalier level first may be best... picking up both Endurance and Diehard at level 1 isn't a bad thing, ever. Use a Bardiche or greatsword.
Then a level of Warpriest, for Scorpion Whip Sacred Weapon and Weapon Focus.
Then all the UnChained Rogue Rake stuff for the Cruelty Rogue Talent and the Dexterity to damage before entering Pain Taster.
Either way gets you into whipping it good faster than just UC Rogue Rake/Pain Taster...
Kay, but what you're failing to understand is one level of this very specific Warpriest locks a tonne about the character. I am not making a Chaotic Evil worshiping character, just to cheese in getting a slightly more powerful weapon. My deity choice would be Calistria, which would mean no Evil domain, and no Scorpion Whip, just a mundane one.
I'm not taking the Weapon Training Talent because the Rogue hasn't got the requisite proficiency.
The Warpriest Blessings either way, if they're DC based then without Wis, they're looking to be DC 10, since there's no advancing in the class. Alternatively they're 3/day very minor bonuses which from having made a Warpriest are generally tailored to fighting specific creatures if they're part of the alignment axis, or else a lesser benefit. A dip for one feat, and a handful of bonuses that will be trivial is not worth trading Rogue's Edge, which in and if itself is a feat, and a Sneak boost which will work on more creatures than a blessing boost. Albeit they may work on different creatures.
Yes, Fighter or Cavalier could grab me both feats early. It can't get me into the prestige class any earlier though since it has a hard cap on 5 skill ranks. If it opens up one feat choice, again getting Rogue's Edge for Signature Skill is equivalently a feat. Trading 1-1 for something at best I'll need to retrain since Pain Taster lacks that nice wording from later prints like the Vigilante "if you already have this feat, you can choose a different feat available at the level you originally got it". Additionally, because they'd be giving up early Rogue's Finesse, a Bardiche or Greatsword as you suggest both require Str, something the build has none of. If I'm going to delay the whip anyway, I would rather be able to actually do something in the meantime.
Which is another issue, and one I dealt with before on a Vigilante build. Getting the Whip early from Warpriest or another source means not having Finesse at 1st, and thus nit even having Dex-attack. So without Str investment the character will hit nothing. Even if one of those 1 level dips eats a Pain Taster prereq or opens the whip up earlier, they sacrifice putting off Finesse and/or Dex-damage. At which point even though they can weild the whip, they can't do anything with it. Nonproficiency bonus of -4 is more worth dealing with than the lack of +3 from Dex to attack. If the first feat saved is eaten up by Weapon Finesse only to need to be retrained then nothing is really being saved. I'd rather just use a different weapon while building up for the whip on those first levels of Pain Taster.
Essentially, if the first 5 levels of Rogue don't use the whip but can still do something else, that is infinitely better than rushing the whip but being borderline useless for the first 3 levels because of lacking something, whether Weapon Finesse, Whip Mastery, or whatever.
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Castling - That makes more sense, however I’m not sure you’re correct in what it does. Soft cover is not partial cover. Soft cover provides the same +4 bonus to AC that cover does. The only difference is that you don’t get the bonus to reflex saves as well.
Partial cover is a GMs call about whether or not there’s enough cover to provide the full +4, or if it should only provide +2. Castling has no effect on that.
If an enemy has some ability to allow it to ignore soft cover (similar to how Phalanx Formation works to ignore allies), then Castling would matter. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen that situation come up.
Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Partial Cover
If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM‘s discretion.
Castling - That makes more sense, however I’m not sure you’re correct in what it does. Soft cover is not partial cover. Soft cover provides the same +4 bonus to AC that cover does. The only difference is that you don’t get the bonus to reflex saves as well.
Partial cover is a GMs call about whether or not there’s enough cover to provide the full +4, or if it should only provide +2. Castling has no effect on that.
If an enemy has some ability to allow it to ignore soft cover (similar to how Phalanx Formation works to ignore allies), then Castling would matter. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen that situation come up.
Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Partial Cover
If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM‘s discretion.
I still like the combination, and would sooner have the +4, since the build's major weakness is ranged. Dex is high enough the Ref save isn't super valuable (and rogue grants Evasion), but the +4 to AC regardless of GM opinion means while I reach supply protection in melee with trips, my probably only one major melee ally (knowing the groups I tend to play with) and they provide me cover from my own abilities against ranged attacks.
Alternatively, if it really doesn't come up as much, can push Unbalancing Trick to earlier in the build for the tripping boost, and try to squeeze Greater Trip in to abuse AoOs. Still need to wait on Improved Whip Mastery though to threaten with the Whip (after reading the full weapon description it looks like regardless of your feats it doesn't threaten in the 15 ft. ring?).
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And you’re decided on Elf for roleplaying reason? Because again, half-orc can get you whip proficiency at 1st level through city-raised, Endurance as a bonus feat (freeing up a feat to take Skill focus leaving in the same place as Elf), a bonus to DEX, no penalty to CON, and sacred tattoo to boost all of your saves. What you give up is a +2 INT, but you essentially gain 1 point in the stat build by not having to buy CON up to 12 from 8. More points if you were wanting a 14 CON.
If you want to wait on the whip, then wait on the whip. If you’re ok with what your rogue will be doing in the meantime (I’m still not sure what that is), then great. Play the character you’re going to have fun playing. I’m just suggesting a path you seem to have missed, since you have stated multiple times that you can’t get whip proficiency from a racial trait, and that’s not true.
Partially roleplaying reasons. Partially choice diversity. Partially free skill focus.
Pre 6 as the rogue is a lot of flanking sneak with the dagger or rapier and subbing the sneak damage for pretty much guaranteed intimidates between the Rake and Skill Focus. With Memorable the boosts almost guarantee 3 rounds on every Intimidate. Castling can also apply since the dagger can also be used thrown (which since Rogue's Finesse Training only applies to melee anyway there's nothing lost).
The elf offers Perfect, and Human Raised, so the free skill focus, and some diplomacy boosts. The character is a face character and putting a little investment those ways is helpful. The Int boost gives the +1 skill point without needing to invest, of course at the cost of Con, which in the long term isn't the fairest trade for the character's masochism. Rogue favored class bonus is going to be going toward HP, but since that would be missing in the Pain Taster's 2+int per level, in order to keep up with just Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive the Int is pretty necessary.
The Half-Orc has access to the human version of Skilled for +1/level at the cost of their Darkvision, or their Ferocity + Weapon Familiarity (which means they can get +2/level which I find funny), but hand economy in experience you really want a non-standard vision, and the other skilled would sacrifice the Whip proficiency defeating one of the major purposes for picking the Half-Orc. Getting Endurance through the race sacrifices Intimidating which I'd rather take the racial bonus given the choice. It does technically open the feat to take Skill Focus, but at that point you're just flipping what the Elf is giving.
All in all, it's an alright alternative. Calistria is an Elven deity though, so thematically it feels a little nicer, even if it's not optimal. And when Pain Taster does roll around, having diverse and non-combat abilities rather than ones that'll be overwritten by the class seems like a wiser investment (the Half-Orc's trait for whip proficiency also give a +2 to Knowledge (Local), which is more than you'd get out of the base Familiarity not using an "orc" weapon, so not everything from it is lost from it).
TLDR; It's more a how I tend to play thing. I like medium-diverse characters to hyper-specialized one trick ponies.
You misunderstand. Castling never affects your AC bonus from cover.
EDIT: Castling turns soft cover into cover. There is no difference in the AC bonus between soft cover and cover.
Partial cover is a separate thing that is unaffected by Castling.
Ah, you are correct. It's a stealth opportunity, which is less useful for the character. Shoving Unbalancing further up then to allow close range trips with the whip before getting Improved Whip Mastery.
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I’m perfectly fine with making suboptimal choices for roleplaying reasons, and the calistria/elf thing makes sense. I’d also look at half-elf, which can get you proficiency (by trading out skill focus, so not ideal, but it’s there as an option).
The INT bonus, mechanically, is offset by the CON penalty. By going half-orc or half-elf, you can buy a 12 INT and be in the exact same place an elf is in terms of point buy. Ahead a little, even , assuming you at least want a 12 CON. Half-elf has some fun racial trait options as well. But if you’re set on elf for other reasons, that’s fine. It’s just not the mechanically better option.
Castling is not even a stealth option, as “Cover the rogue gains from this talent does not allow her to attempt Stealth checks.” All it would give you is a +4 on your reflex saves when you have soft cover. Really not worth it.
Sneak attacking with dagger or rapier is fine. You won’t have dex to damage with those weapons, so when you aren’t getting sneak you’re not going to be doing much damage. That’s why I feel like getting whip online earlier is important. You’re costing yourself a large damage bonus from 3rd-5th level.
I’ll offer an option around the retraining, but you may not like it. Take a level of Brawler. With Martial Flexibility, you can pick up Whip Mastery temporarily. You won’t have multiple attacks until 8th level anyway. And you’ll have improved unarmed strike, which you can use in rounds you have to move up and attack and can’t spend the move action to get Whip mastery. You do lose 1d6 sneak attack, and rogue’s edge, but you gain a lot of flexibility on getting access to things early. Plus a much needed boost to fort saves and some extra hit points. Later, when you have Whip Mastery, you can use martial flexibility to get improved Whip Mastery until you have that. Etc. you can pick up any of the combat feats earlier than you actually have them, so that your build is doing what you want it to do earlier, so that you’re playing the character the way it’s designed to be played for more levels. That’s all those of us posting here are trying to help you do. (Me, anyway)
Brawler has potential too. All the options do. Long term though, if say the character was being made at 12th level to start, all of them would be less ideal than staying flat, and that's also a perspective I tend to take with these things.
Even Brawler 1 though, Whip Mastery is still locked behind level 3 (BAB +2 requirement). By that level 2d6 sneak shores up a lot of the dagger problems. I consider it like playing a base rogue compared to unchained. Base rogue would be in about the same place (just without Weapon Finesse). With everything that needs squeezing in for the prestige class (which I don't tend to build prestige characters very often for that reason) lack of Weapon Focus is also going to cause a snag.
It's one of those things, whenever I look at it with 1 level dips, the tradeoffs for the most part require too much specific to be worth it, or else in the long term nothing is gained.
We'll say U Rogue 1 start for Finesse, and assume the Half-Orc for free prof, which is pretty much only whip start. Can't apply for Focus since BAB isn't +1, any other option means burning the first feat on Weapon Finesse or pretty much being unable to hit (and that would need retraining), and there are 3 feats (only 2 of which are combat feats) that need to be slipped in.
Brawler 2 isn't really viable since really nothing gained towards end build, so Rogue 2 to grab a free Combat feat or Weapon Training for Focus.
Brawler 3 is the earliest we can use flexibility for Whip Mastery, so it can fit here. It's delaying Finesse Training but one is not super useful without the other. Feat again is eaten by prereqs. Combat Reflexes isn't in the build yet though at this point though, so we're looking at more building to get things working later.
Rogue 4, you get Finesse Training on whip. It's a good weapon for the 4 mins you can use it per day.
Rogue 5, feat eaten, you get a rogue talent so you can put Combat Reflexes here which is crucial for trip-abuse later.
Pain Taster, Whip Mastery is permanent, BAB is high enough to flexibility Improved 4 mins/day.
Not bad, certainly viable, though levels 1-2 are pretty much exactly the same as the Elf, just with a lower Intimidate bonus. The new downside though becomes Greater Trip. With Castling cut out, Unbalancing Trick early means having the full Greater Trip nonsense online at 13 just after getting permanent Improved Whip Mastery. The Brawler variant needs Combat Expertise to qualify for Improved Trip, so it's locked and thus locks Greater Trip to Rogue 6, which won't happen until 17 with the 1 level stagger another class adds.
All the alternatives kind of offer that same problem. Since all 3 feats are necessary for the Prestige but not the build, it reduces the character to just bonus feats to get the whip online early, which means not spending them on the fringe feats that actually make the build viable. There's the Whip-specific line, and the Combat Reflexes-Greater Trip abuse line, and then Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses in order to maximize Sneak Attack opportunities. Only Combat Reflexes-Trip isn't blocked by the need for Weapon Focus.
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It's just a reality with the whip that unless you're going scorpion whip or using a whip-based archetype from the start, you're not going to come online until 2nd or 3rd level at the earliest. It's waiting until 12th for Improved Whip Mastery that bothers me most in the Rake/Pain Taster build. A large part of having a whip in the first place is to be able to fight at range and force them to provoke moving in. And you'll only have that for 9 of your 20 levels. There's not a lot of point in having Combat Reflexes until you have Improved Whip Mastery, so whether you grab that at 5, 7, 9, or 11 won't matter that much.
Here is the whip character I'm playing. The build obvious had different goals (flurry with a whip). I'm including it to illustrate how much earlier thing come online than in what you've got. Which was extremely important for me, since it's a PFS build and unlikely I'll even be playing it at 12th level when you just get to your build's main strength.
Worships Matravash
STR 11 (+1 8th) DEX 20 (17 +2racial, +1 4th) CON 14 INT 7 WIS 16 CHA 7
Favored Class Bonus for WP levels 3-8 goes to 1/6 Bonus Feat
L1 UMonk 1: Weapon Finesse, B) Combat Reflexes, B) Stunning Fist, B) Improved Unarmed Strike, H) Phalanx Formation, Flurry of Blows
L2 WP 1: B) EWP (Whip), B) Weapon Focus (Whip), Sacred Weapon (1d6), Community and Travel Blessings
L3 WP 2: Whip Mastery, Fervor
L4 WP 3: B) Slashing Grace->Improved Whip Mastery (6th)
L5 WP 4: Crusader's Flurry, Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon +1
L6 LW 1: B) Martial Focus (Flails-Includes Whip), Knowledge Skills as Class Skills
L7 WP 5: Difficult Swings, Fervor 2D6, Sacred Weapon (1d8)
L8 WP 6: B) Weapon Specialization (Whip)
L9 WP 7: Lunge, Sacred Armor +1
L10 WP 8: FCB) Greater Weapon Focus (Whip), Fervor 3D6, Sacred Weapon +2
L11 WP 9: Improved Critical (Whip), B) Power Attack
The build is obviously super skill starved compared to your rogue build, and there's not a lot that would change that. He's basically perception and sense motive. It's fair to slow things down a little in order to have more out of combat options.
Here's how the breakdown goes:
Level 2: Whip proficiency and d6 damage (nonlethal), but still basically a monk.
Level 3: Can now use the whip from 15 feet away, behind party members with no penalty, and deal lethal damage. Can still flurry with unarmed if I have the opportunity.
Level 4: Dex to damage with the whip, making it often the superior option even to flurrying.
Level 5: Flurry with the whip. Buy an Agile whip (Slashing Grace doesn't work with flurry). The basic build is online, and I get 7 levels of whip flurrying fun.
Level 6: Use retraining to get Improved Whip Mastery. Now threaten 10'. I need a +1 BAB class here to get the BAB prerequisite for Martial Focus and Difficult Swings. I thought about going Brawler here, but I wanted a true bonus feat.
Level 7: More new fun. Difficult Swings means the squares adjacent to me are difficult terrain for my enemies (or whoever I want them to be difficult for). Now I can attack from 10 feet away and enemies can't 5-foot step to get full attacks and they have to provoke. I get to use this for 5 levels.
Level 8: Just boosting damage
Level 9: Attack range is now 20 feet. I can attack from the 4th rank in a marching order without taking penalties to hit.
Level 10: Just boosting attack
Level 11: Just boosting damage
By the time the build is at 7th level, it really has everything it needs. All the choices beyond that could go to anything else I want. I could slow the build down 2 levels and add some skill utility. I could not dump INT and have a decent number of skill points. Lots of ways I could switch it up, but my priority was to get to Crusader's Flurry and to get to Improved Whip Mastery as quickly as possible while remaining Warpriest for the majority. Crusader Cleric could have gotten me flurry sooner.
Anyway, if you're happy with your build, go for it. A lot depends on the style of game you'll be in, how fast you'll be leveling, etc. You compare it to playing a core rogue for 5 levels. That's a painful prospect for a lot of players. But if you're good with it, the great. Where your build ends up is a fun place, and if you're happy with waiting that long to get there, there's not issue.