Non-touch bombs AND a Gun Chemist Combat Style Rules Question

[Seasaur]

Are there any discoveries or archetypes that change bombs to instead make then ordinary ranged attacks instead of ranged touch attacks? (The goal being to allow them to qualify for deadly aim)

EDIT: Ive been trying to add a thread to the rules forum for the last half an hour, but the "submit post" button seems to function exactly the same as the preview button, meaning its not letting me ask there, so i'll ask here in the mean time:

Can a Gun Chemist Alchemist with the "Empty Quiver Flexibility" feat deal the extra damage from his Alchemical Ordinance ability with each melee attack made with a firearm?

[Name Violation]

Explosive missile lets you add a bomb to a arrow/bolt. You can deadly aim with that

[Name Violation]

You could also use explosive missile on a firearm, allowing you to still hit touch AC and add deadly aim damage.

[TheMonkeyFish]

@Seasaur - Do all of these questions apply to the Gun Chemist archetype? If so, keep in mind that guns are not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.

Quote:

Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.

The Gun Chemist archetype augments the ammunition used, not the weapon. Therefor, as long as you're using a Gun, you can still use Deadly Aim and other such feats despite targeting Touch AC.

Empty Quiver Style and the "Empty Quiver" feats only allow you to attack with the Weapon itself - not the ammunition. You're basically using your gun as a giant baseball bat, instead of using it to shoot things. Alchemical Ordinance augments the ammunition - not the weapon.

===(Edit)===
Basically, Gun Chemists calculate damage using the following formula:

[WeaponDamage]+[Bonuses] B+P Damage and [Bomb]+[Modifier] Fire damage.

Example: (Early Musket: Lvl 5 Musket Master + Level 1 Gun Chemist; 18 DEX, 22 INT; Feats: Point Blank, Precision Shot, Deadly Aim)

1d12+1(Point-Blank)+4(Deadly Aim)+4(DEX) Blungeoning and Piercing Damage, plus 1d6+6(INT) Fire Damage.

Note: Deadly Aim does NOT count towards the fire damage dealt by Alchemical Ordinance, and there is no way (as far as I know) to add Deadly Aim to Splash damage.

[Seasaur]

TheMonkeyFish wrote:

@Seasaur - Do all of these questions apply to the Gun Chemist archetype?

No, I stumbled across the gun chemist after asking the initial question. Everything after the edit was something I wanted to ask in the rules forum but couldn't. Thanks for the clarification btw.

[TheMonkeyFish]

No worries @Seasaur, I was actually wanting to make a Musket Master/Gun Chemist multiclass. After level 5, there isn't anything else that Gunslinger offers, so going into Alchemy for some fun stuff seems like a valid choice. Another choice being Grenadier or Abolitionist archetypes. The former for being able to mix Alchemical weapons into your bullets, and the latter for a bigger KABOOM with every bomb.

I hope you enjoy whatever it is that you're planning for the Bombs you plan to sling, hope you found what you're looking for.

[Seasaur]

The only downside to gun chemist I can see is that, unlike gunslingers who can get the lightning deed, they cant reload their firearms as a free action. Is there a way they can get there without multiclassing to allow full attacks with a firearm?

Also I cant find the "Abolitionist", can you link?

[Seasaur]

My mistake, lightning reload does not function as I thought it did, so I assume not even gunslingers can full attack wth a firearm. Although I am still curious about the "Abolitionist" archetype you mentioned. Bigger kabooms are good.

[TheMonkeyFish]

@Seasaur - Firearms specifically call out Swift or Free actions for their Full-Round attack requirements, but I am sure you have other things you would prefer doing with your swift action, and swift actions would only allow 2 attacks per round instead of your full Full-Round attack (Attack > Swift > Attack > Run out of Swifts).

That being said, Rapid Reload and Alchemical Cartridges will reduce your loading time down to a Swift Action at the trade off of increasing your Misfire Chance by 1 (Oh, look at that, Gun Chemist ignores this Misfire Chance because it's an Alchemical Cartridge! :D). And it's only a 3 level dip into Musket Master for that same reload speed. I know the 12g per shot seems expensive, but keep in mind that Gunsmith reduces the cost per shot to 10% (1g 2s).

My apologies, the Archetype was called Alchemical Sapper.
-----
Also, the main reason why I'm going Gunslinger/Alchemist, is because the Gunslinger doesn't offer much after Level 5. Heck, I'd think about switching after level 3 just because I only need the reload. xD

[Zwordsman]

I'm not really sure you really even need lv 11's Lightning Reload.
Rapid reload reduce one step, Alch Bullets 1 more.
So for a Two Handed firearm. its full round, to standard, to move. right?
Or for a one handed it goes from Standard, to Move, to Free.
Musket Master archetype lets you reload as if it was a one handed. So it also goes to Free.

So if you're using a one handed you can get free that way.
If you want a long arm, you'll need musket Master.

============

I've never found Gunslinger's Dex to damage as much of a need for the alchemist. But I do tend to be Alchemist first, Gunner second?

My Gunchemist prioritzes his Int then Dex. So the 3-5 Dex damage he'd get from it, never really outweighed the extra bomb dice, extra bomb uses, and extra alchemist discoveries.

Though that story is diffierent if you're going for the Musket reloading class ability. That is hard to replace If you want full attacks.

I had a quiet sniper one once, but he used Bullseye Aim Feat to get extra to hit. And used a Benefical Bandoleer to Swift Reload. Also had those silence gloves, so he would be quietly firing from quite long ways away. off setting range penalties with feats, and the +hit from Bullseye helped mitigate the lack of touch AC a few times.
=========

I have, and always will prefer a Paddle gun Gunchemist. They lose the heavy range abilities yeah (though you could build a sideweapon for it).
Mine VMC'd Magus. but that isn't really needed.
But with the paddle gun, he could shot targeted shots, but he could also shoot scatter and alchemcial cartridge's such as the fire one.
This meant, that he had rather good AOE Scatter cones, along with pretty good defense from the gunner's buckler. Paddle Guns also have several barrels so he didn't have to reload as often. But could really lay down a lot of surrpressive fire.