Hello guys and gals,
i have a roleplay concept i can't finalize in a class, so i'm asking for some help, here there are some requirements:
-Small race (i prefer gnome in any case, but also halfling or goblin could be cool)
-Charisma as 2nd/3rd stat (not excluding 1st anyway)
-Playing in melee mostly, but i would have some magic trick (for example moving myself onto a roof very quick, camouflage myself within a town or in a room supposing to be a statue or something similar - yeah i plan to stand still on a roof in a Daredevil style thinking about my town :D!)
-I'm considering every fighting style (even two weapons fight or two-handed weapons, it doesn't have to be min maxed, viable is okay, i would pay the price if it's for a roleplay reason)
Any kind of idea is strongly appreciated and i'm saying thank you in advance to who will dedicate some of his/her time/knowledge for me ^-^!
Vivsectionist Alchemist would do pretty well for you except the lack of need for CHR. Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue is much the same. The sneak attack doesn't care what size you are so it is a good choice for melee and small characters.
Magus offers similar effects, using spells instead of sneak attack. Except for the Eldritch Scoundrel, they don't use CHR either. Personally I am not a fan of that archetype but it might work for you.
Bard is a strong class, and something like Arcane Duelist can make it pretty strong in melee but probably not as strong as the others, but if you are willing to do support/melee it is a very viable choice.
Summoner of course is powerful, but except for the synthesist not itself usually melee focused. Oracle can be pretty good at melee, particularly something like a battle oracle, but doesn't really benefit being small rather than medium.
Obviously you have a superhero vibe and there are several Vigilante archetypes that might work out. Magical Child is a CHR based caster.
First of all, thanks buddies ^-^!
@Dave Justus: Vivisectionist Alchemist lack in use of CHA, exactly like does ES Rogue, and about this one
The eldritch scoundrel doesn’t acquire the sneak attack class feature until 3rd level, when she gains a +1d6 sneak attack. This increases by 1d6 at 7th level, and again at every 4 rogue levels thereafter.
This modifies the rogue’s normal sneak attack progression.
Is it worth sacrifice Sneak Attack like that, when the Magus could do pretty much the same thing (casting like a magus is written in the ES Rogue)?
The "tricks" i would use about magic are more oriented to roleplaying aspect of the character than a real use in combat (for example beeing able to "teleport" somehow on a roof or stuff like that, i'm curious about if such a thing does exist, some kind of a little teleport trick).
Bard it's one of my options, but why prefer Bard to Magus exactly?
Summoner isn't an option in my opinion because i'm probably "waisting" half or more of the class aspects and powers.
Completely agree on Oracle, but since is a divine spellcaster would he provide me those tricks i aim for?
Vigilante, i've read a little bit about this class but my concerns are about the "core" of the class Dual Identity which i consider pretty much arguable/useless since if NPCs could "scry" (or some similar stuff) your party, and you're mostly with your party -> 2+2=4. Glad if someone could clarify that aspect to me, because i can't.
@Scott Wilhelm:In which way is that Goblin build providing those tricks above discussed?
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The Vigilante dual identity ability specifically stops scrying for one identity while you are in your opposite identity. You have 2 different alignments, count as 2 separate people, etc. It won't stop someone from scrying for your party members though, not much you can do about that. Depending on your play style and your GM, having someone find out your secret identity is not always a big deal though.
Outside of the identity shenanigans, the vigilante is an incredibly versatile class, you can make an armored fighter, a stealthy rogue, a couple caster variants like the warlock and magical child, etc.
It can take a bit of planning and forethought, but a well built Vigilante can often do a better job than the core class they are mirroring.
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The "tricks" i would use about magic are more oriented to roleplaying aspect of the character than a real use in combat (for example beeing able to "teleport" somehow on a roof or stuff like that, i'm curious about if such a thing does exist, some kind of a little teleport trick).
The options I can think of are:
1. Dimension Door spell.2. Dimensional Hop (cleric travel domain power) / Time Hop (Time Oracle Revelation)
3. Heavens Leap Hex (Heavens Shaman).
In general, Halfling is likely to be the optimal race for your concept (small, with boosts to dex and cha).
A Halfling Dawnflower Dervish Bard meets most of your criteria (no real camouflage trick, but you could cast Invisibility, and you can have a great Stealth skill). Getting Dervish Dance as a bonus feat at 1st lvl means you don't have to wait to do reasonable melee damage.
A Halfling Eldritch Scion Magus is another option. In this case, you need to wait until 3rd lvl for Dervish Dance.
Thanks again ^-^.
It won't stop someone from scrying for your party members though, not much you can do about that.
Yeah, not an exciting stuff imho. I read on a guide that this one is a core feature of the Vigilante class, losing it or "getting it bypassed" makes the class not a great choice right?
1. Dimension Door spell.
2. Dimensional Hop (cleric travel domain power) / Time Hop (Time Oracle Revelation)
3. Heavens Leap Hex (Heavens Shaman)
Those spells are more focused on what i meant with "tricks", anything achievable earlier tho?
Tangle Feet and Roll with It are Goblin Feats.
even if i should admit those looks very funny to me, they're not the kind of tricks i was looking for(also because those are in-fight tricks, i'm looking for out-combat stuff).
Arcanist's one is more focused on my "request", the problem is that i'm going melee into the fight, arcanist class looks more "caster" to me, am i wrong?
@Scott Wilhelm: Thank you!
Are we sure dipping one level isn't a BAB loss to heavy to face?
What you propose is tempting me :O! Everything you said feels interesting and a clear option to me.
For magic items we shouldn't have many problems, the GM allow those and we usually get many, plus we can always talk/homebrew some stuff (we do for flavour not to get real advantages, we're a group using the "rule of cool").
I could go for a small goblin melee focused and get use of some magic item to perform tricks.
About goblins, how do you fix the fact of being mainly in a town? I think people doesn't exactly love them...maybe i can use a trait like adopted in background, but how do you really roleplay them without being killed at 1st level?
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Those spells are more focused on what i meant with "tricks", anything achievable earlier tho?1. Dimension Door spell.
2. Dimensional Hop (cleric travel domain power) / Time Hop (Time Oracle Revelation)
3. Heavens Leap Hex (Heavens Shaman)
A Shaman can get Heavens Leap at 2nd lvl, although it's going to be tough to make a decent small, melee oriented Shaman.
It seems a Mesmerist may be exactly up your alley. Melee capable, Charismatic, and their Mesmerist Tricks give you a whole world of fun little options. Nothing quite as amazing as dimension door, but good Cha, UMD, and some other psychic stuff could fit the theme/feel you're looking for quite well.
Another idea to consider is taking Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade archetype) as your 1st character level and then moving on to whatever class you actually want for your remaining levels. You could then gain Dex to attack and damage at 1st level and thus not need to worry about Str at all.
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You could potentially do the same thing with one level of Dawnflower Dervish Bard, although you give up a point of BAB. It would probably work best for a campaign where you don't expect to reach high levels (you get a bunch of front-loaded stuff with Dawnflower Dervish that doesn't help all that much at higher levels, whereas Opportunity Parry & Riposte scales better).
1. Swashbuckler (Mouser)
BAB +1 SAVES 0,2,0 D10HD 4+Int skills
2. Acanist
BAB +1 SAVES 0,2,2 D6HD 2+Int skills
3,4,5,6. UC Rogue (Vexing Dodger)
BAB +4 SAVES 1,6,3 D8HD 8+Int skills
7+. Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Gives you all the fun stuff related to your character being small. Gives you Dirty Tricks and the teleport thing. Dexterity to damage at level 5. And Arcane Duelist fills out your combat feats and utility. Tons of skills and decent saves picked up along the way.
Going with a Medium after level 6 would also work.
The aforementioned Mesmerist also isn't a bad option for this build after level 6.
You could Variant Multiclass Sorcerer and pick a bloodline that compliments your character on top of all of this, as well.
Thanks guys ^-^!
@PCScipio: So, shaman is a no no.
Dervish Bard still viable, probably i'm going to play halfling (goblin has -2CHA).
@HedwickTheWorldly: Reading that class right now!
@Scott Wilhelm: Sneak Attack is probably the first choice to a small character going melee, but doesn't the rogue "sucks" as a class (i heard many debate online)?
The racial thing you covered, bro, that's awesome thanks.
@David knott 242: nice one, should i worry about something like armours penalties if i run in a caster dip maybe?
@VoodistMonk: seems a nice build, but why the Mouser at first level?
Tasty stew ^-^!
The Snakebite Brawler SA progression takes way more time than a rogue one right? Is this worth (compensated by something) or will this just give me a character even worse than the rogue itself?
The Vivisectionist does it have a SA progression himself? Can't find anything about (probably i'm just misunderstanding how does it work).
The Slayer (something like the brawler?). Is there some archetype i'm missing maybe? Also i prefer to avoid animal companions if possible. I think animal companions and mounts doesn't perform well going into higher levels (because on how the game let you build through 'em) and they both become more of a thing to worry about (they could die) rather than a true help.
Unless you’re rushing to something, I’d recommend taking 2 levels of arcanist. The 2nd level will get you better slide and +1 BAB.
Mouser is full BAB, D10 hit dice, brings Panache and the ability to enter into someone's space. I believe it makes for a better start with more survivability than starting as the Arcanist.
Ideally, you always take your highest hit die class for your first level when multiclassing.
Thanks guys.
Wow that build is mixing up 3 or 4 classes right?
I've no idea of what is Panther Claw, i should read it.