This is a straight newb question:
(And I cant seem to find a basic answer anywhere).
If I find a suit of +1 leather armor, how do I go about determining its special ability?
Our entire group, including DM, is new...
And is it the same process for weapons?
What is meant by base price? Like +1 bonus compared to a gp value...
Newmainium wrote: how do I go about determining its special ability? You don't. It doesn't have a special ability, apart from being "+1".
Quote: And is it the same process for weapons? Mostly. Some magical weapons shed light, but most people seem to forget/ignore that anyway.
Quote: What is meant by base price? Like +1 bonus compared to a gp value... The reverse, actually. The "base price" is the value of the armour (or weapon) if it wasn't magical. So for your +1 Leather Armour, the base price is 160gp (10 for being a leather armour, and 150 for being of "masterwork" quality).
+1 leather armor.
Normally leather armor costs 10 gp, this is the base price. Masterwork leather armor costs 160 gp (masterwork adds 150 gp to the cost).
+1 leather armor costs 1,160 gp (1000 gp for +1 armor, 150 gp for masterwork, 10 gp for base cost). Magic armor must be masterwork.
+1 leather armor is just +1 leather armor.
Suppose you want +2 leather armor of blending.
Quote: Price +2 bonus; Slot none; CL 11th; Weight —; Aura moderate illusion
DESCRIPTION
Shadow blending armor is drab and mutes any colors in its wearer’s attire into dull grays.
Attacks against the wearer in dim light have a 40% miss chance instead of the normal 20%.
This ability does not grant total concealment; it only increases the miss chance. If the armor also has the shadow, improved shadow, or greater shadow armor special ability, the miss chance increases to 50%.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost +3 bonus; Feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Spells shadow walk
This costs 9,160 gp. Cost is as follows: 10 gp leather armor, masterwork 150 gp, +3 equivalent 9,000 gp.
The methods of learning what an item does is something of a pain. In older versions of D&D, some GMs had fun having the PCs find an item and not know what it was. PCs would activate items blindly, cast Identify (which had a material component cost) or maybe just never figure out what the item did. The item could even be cursed. IMO this is only reasonable for special items. I don't see why I should have trouble figuring out that this wand is a Wand of Magic Missiles, 3rd-level, and and the command word is "Spoon!". It's a common magic item, not a quest in itself.
A magic weapon or magic armor can have a rating of +1 to +5. For weapons, this is a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. For armor, this number is how much the defense of the armor is improved by.
So a +3 Longsword gets a +3 to attack rolls and deals 1d8 + 3 damage. A +3 Leather armor has an armor rating of 5 (2 + 3).
Both magic weapons and magic armor can have additional abilities. Often the abilities are included in the weapon name. For example, a +3 Flaming Longsword has the flaming enhancement. This causes the weapon to inflict 1d6 fire damage with every hit. This ability is treated as a +1 bonus, so a +3 weapon with this enhancement is priced as a +4 weapon 32000 gp (4 squared * 2000 gp).
A magic weapon or magic armor may have an enhancement bonus of +5 with another +5 worth of abilities. So a weapon could be a +5 Flaming Burst Speed Longsword.
Ok, thank you.
We were way off. We were under the impression that if we found a "+1 sword" or "+1 armor" we were able to add a +1 special ability to it....
So if I find +1 leather armor and I want to add "advancing" special quality to it, how do I go about doing that?
Additionally, if I found a +2 sword, how do I make it a cruel sword as well?
Thanks again in advance.
So a suit of +1 leather armor with a +1 bonus would be 2000 gp?
Unless you have the feats to make magic items (Craft Armor in this case), you don’t add things to it. Most of the time you get what you find, or you purchase what you want. The GM will determine if the armor you want is for sale, or can be commissioned.
If you wish to turn a +1 Longsword into a +1 Flaming Longsword, you would need to craft it yourself (or pay someone else to do it). You can use magic crafting to enhance an item instead of making a new one.
If you were doing the crafting yourself, you would need the appropriate magic item crafting feat, know the appropriate spells, and have a sufficient caster level. For a +1 Flaming Longsword, you would need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, be at least caster level 3 (you must have a caster level of at least 3 times the enhancement bonus or abilities bonus for weapons and armor), and know one of the following spells: flame blade, flame strike, or fireball.
The cost to enhance an item is the difference between the cost of the final item and the cost of the starting item.
You can skip some prerequisites. Each prerequisite you skip adds a +5 mod to the final DC. You can't skip item creation feats.
Newmainium wrote: So a suit of +1 leather armor with a +1 bonus would be 2000 gp? No. A +1 armor with a +1 ability is priced as a +2 bonus. The price would 4000 gp (2 squared * 1000 gp).
*By the way, if you didn't know, magic weapons are twice as expensive as magic armor.
OmniMage wrote: Newmainium wrote: So a suit of +1 leather armor with a +1 bonus would be 2000 gp? No. A +1 armor with a +1 ability is priced as a +2 bonus. The price would 4000 gp (2 squared * 1000 gp).
*By the way, if you didn't know, magic weapons are twice as expensive as magic armor. Right, but if the item is a +1 suit of armor, lets say leather, then its price is 1160 gp, no? And I thought a +1 bonus cost 1000 gp??
This seems overly confusing, and im sure its not...i just havnt got it yet..lol
Ok. So how much would a suit of +1 glamered leather armor cost? 4700 gp?
And based on the tables, it seems to me that certain abilities are only available on +1, +2, +3 ,+4 or +5 items....
Like glamered for instance, on the d20 site is only listed as a +2 special ability....
Let me try to explain this. When you want to make a magic suit of armor (or shield, or a weapon) you figure out what abilities you want on it and then you look up on the chart how much that costs. You can't have more than +5 in special abilities or enhancement. Armor, shields and weapons have to have +1 in enhancement bonuses before you can add special abilities.
So lets say you want to make a +1 Glamered Spell Storing Mind Buttressing Mithril Chainmail. Spell Storing costs +1. Glamered costs a straight 2700gp. Mind Buttressing costs +2. Mithril is a special material that increases the value of the Chainmail by 4,000gp (medium armor) and includes the cost of making it master worked. Chainmail itself costs 150gp. So in total this armor is valued at (150gp+4000gp+2700gp) 6,850gp + (+4 bonus = 16,000gp) = 22,850gp. You have to look at the value of the bonuses on the Armor and Shield Pricing by Bonus Table.
So to recap the items is +1, +1 for spell storing, +2 for mind buttressing. For the same price, it could of been a +4 armor with Glamered and no other special abilities. Special abilities always say they cost a flat amount of gold or how much they increase the bonus to the armor/shield/weapon.
You can add to a magic item by figuring out how much the item would cost with what you want to add, and subtract the value of what the item currently has. Like you can make a +2 Leather Armor from a +1 Leather Armor by paying the difference in cost. You can't subtract from an item, you can only add more till you reach the maximum allowed. You also need either a player or NPC who can actually do the work (has the feats and spells/levels to help).
Newmainium wrote: Right, but if the item is a +1 suit of armor, lets say leather, then its price is 1160 gp, no? And I thought a +1 bonus cost 1000 gp??
This seems overly confusing, and im sure its not...i just havnt got it yet..lol
Oh. I thought you were asking for a +1 armor with a +1 ability. If its just a +1 then its just 1000 gp for the magic part. Sorry about confusing you.
Newmainium wrote: Ok. So how much would a suit of +1 glamered leather armor cost? 4700 gp? Looks like it costs 2700 gp to add. It doesn't follow the ability bonus rules. Its easy to forget this can happen. Most of the time, new abilities are made as +1, +2, +3, etc.
Consider it a steal. In the long run, enhancement bonuses grow exponentially in price.
Newmainium wrote: Like glamered for instance, on the d20 site is only listed as a +2 special ability.... *scratches head*
I don't know where they got that idea from. I can't find a source.
OmniMage wrote: Newmainium wrote: Ok. So how much would a suit of +1 glamered leather armor cost? 4700 gp? Looks like it costs 2700 gp to add. It doesn't follow the ability bonus rules. Its easy to forget this can happen. Most of the time, new abilities are made as +1, +2, +3, etc.
Consider it a steal. In the long run, enhancement bonuses grow exponentially in price.
Newmainium wrote: Like glamered for instance, on the d20 site is only listed as a +2 special ability.... *scratches head*
I don't know where they got that idea from. I can't find a source. Glamered is listed in the same table as +2 bonus armor special abilities if you were going to roll it up as random treasure. It is also labeled as 2,700gp on that table.
Meirril wrote: OmniMage wrote: Newmainium wrote: Ok. So how much would a suit of +1 glamered leather armor cost? 4700 gp? Looks like it costs 2700 gp to add. It doesn't follow the ability bonus rules. Its easy to forget this can happen. Most of the time, new abilities are made as +1, +2, +3, etc.
Consider it a steal. In the long run, enhancement bonuses grow exponentially in price.
Newmainium wrote: Like glamered for instance, on the d20 site is only listed as a +2 special ability.... *scratches head*
I don't know where they got that idea from. I can't find a source. Glamered is listed in the same table as +2 bonus armor special abilities if you were going to roll it up as random treasure. It is also labeled as 2,700gp on that table. Ok so theoretically, you could have a +1 glamered suit of armor....it doesnt have to be +2.
The difference in cost would be the difference between a +1 and +2 suit of armor.
I think I am getting it.
Just to clarify,
If I had a +1 suit of leather armor the cost would be 1160gp (10 for suit, 150 for msterwork, and 1000 for the +1)
Then if I added a special ability to it (that had a base cost of +1 bonus), would that add an additional 1000 gp OR does that make the item a +2 item as far as cost goes, making the price 4000 gp.
And if the above is correct,
If I had a +2 suit of armor and added the same +1 special ability, that means the price would skyrocket to 9000 gp....
Seems wrong to me that the same bonus adds exponentially more to the cost, without the ability also growing in strength...
Newmainium wrote: Just to clarify,
If I had a +1 suit of leather armor the cost would be 1160gp (10 for suit, 150 for msterwork, and 1000 for the +1)
Yes.
Quote: Then if I added a special ability to it (that had a base cost of +1 bonus), would that add an additional 1000 gp OR does that make the item a +2 item as far as cost goes, making the price 4000 gp. The latter (4,000 gp).
Quote: And if the above is correct,
If I had a +2 suit of armor and added the same +1 special ability, that means the price would skyrocket to 9000 gp....
Yes.
Quote: Seems wrong to me that the same bonus adds exponentially more to the cost, without the ability also growing in strength... PC loot increases dramatically over levels. The items count as "money sinks". Some games don't have money sinks. PCs end up rich, with nothing to spend, or they get strongholds and the like. (In a game where magic items count as money sinks, PCs don't get strongholds because they're simply not worth as much as magic items.)
So I saw the confusion about Glamered above. Sorry. I just grabbed the first magic leather armor I saw.
Newmainium wrote: Seems wrong to me that the same bonus adds exponentially more to the cost, without the ability also growing in strength... Well, think of it this way. The Character Wealth by Level table on p. 399 says that a 6th level character aught to own 16000 gp in gear. 16000 gp is also the price of a +2 enhancement +2 ability armor. A 6th level character shouldn't own such armor because it would consume all the character's wealth and leave them unbalanced. However, the same is not true of level 18, where its possible to own a +5 enhancement +5 ability armor, a +5 enhancement +5 ability weapon and plenty of other gear.
It is also noteworthy to point out that abilities like Invulnerability (+3) or Reflecting (+5) contribute something to combat, while Glamered or Slick does not (or at least not much). Another noteworthy thing is abilities like Energy Resistance can be found on other items, such as a Ring of Energy Resistance. They can't be too much more expensive or the most practical course of action would be to always get the power from the ring and never from the armor.
Newmainium wrote: that make the item a +2 item as far as cost goes, making the price 4000 gp.
And if the above is correct,
If I had a +2 suit of armor and added the same +1 special ability, that means the price would skyrocket to 9000 gp....
Seems wrong to me that the same bonus adds exponentially more to the cost, without the ability also growing in strength...
It may seem this way, but weapon does grow in power greatly with each enhancement level.
First, there is a caveat.
+1 weapon beats damage resistance to magic, but werewolf still requires silver weapon to kill.
+3 weapons count as silver and cold iron for overcoming DR.
+4 count as adamantine.
+5 weapons can overcome DR chaos/evil/good/law - common to outsiders, daemons and angels alike.
This means that while +1 weapon is +1 attack/+1 damage to werewolf, +3 weapon is +3 attack/+13 damage because it ignores lycantrope's damage resistance.
Regardless of that, weapon and armor power grows exponentially due to attack roll vs AC mechanic which is not linear.
It also encourages having all of the party equipped with +1 weapons rather than just dump collective cash into barbarian's axe just cos he have the best attack bonus.
You or your DM, of course, can houserule it to cost however you want, but I would advice doing so only if you completely understand the level/wealth progression.
Thanks everyone for clarifying this for me.
The last thing we are vague on is Caster Level.
Rule reads as:
"Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."
Is that referencing the level you need to be to use the item or make the item?
I'm confused because it doesnt list a CL in the construction requirements, and like most sections in the rulebook, the explanation is quite vague.
This is where things get a bit fuzzy. Pathfinder FAQ doesn't enforce caster levels for magic item crafting. This often allows you craft magic items much earlier than what the caster levels suggest. Unless it says otherwise elsewhere, assume that caster level is just a suggestion.
I don't know where the FAQ is at, so I can't check to be sure.
For example, crafting metamagic rods. On p. 484, Metamagic Empower says it has a caster level of 17, but the crafting requirements don't list it as a requirement. So you can craft once you can reasonably afford it.
Caster level does affect the saving throws of magic items, its 2 + 1/2 caster level, so a high caster level is often an advantage. However, the spell Make Whole can magically repair items that are half your caster level.
I do recommend enforcing caster levels for certain magic items. For instance a +3 magic weapon can bypass DR that requires silver or cold iron to ignore. +4 magic weapons can bypass adamantine DR. +5 magic weapons can bypass alignment DR. Getting a high weapon enhancement bonus early will affect the difficulty of many encounters, likely to ruin the challenge.
I would also enforce minimum caster levels for consumable magic items to be the minimum needed to cast the spell.
Newmainium wrote: Is that referencing the level you need to be to use the item or make the item? Neither, sort of. Caster level doesn't actually come into play for magic items except for a couple minor circumstances...
1} Creation. OmniMage covered that for you. To actually craft something, if you've got the feats to do so, CL is used very lightly to gauge who can make it. But even then, the CL requirement isn't actually required. As in, anyone with Craft Magic Arms And Armor can craft a [/i]+5 longsword[/i] but the skill check DC they need to make to succeed goes up because they don't actually meet that "requirement". Most of the crafting requirements listed for items can by bypassed by increasing the crafting DC.
2} Dispelling. The dispel magic spell can shut down a magic item's properties for 1d4 rounds. A clever monster that can only be killed by fire who sees a fighter approaching with a +1 flaming longsword could cast dispel magic on that sword to buy some time. That spell talks about using a caster level check against the caster level of what you're trying to dispel. Having a CL listed for magic items helps in that case. Which I've almost never seen.
3} Item potency. This is more about the spell-in-a-box items, like a ring of invisibility. That ring lets you cast invisibility at will. Sure. Great. But how long does it last? Well, the spell lasts one minute per level. Again, great. But... what's the ring's level? Turns out the ring has that CL 3 listing on it, so you know that it was created at that potency level. Each time you activate the ring, it lasts for 3 minutes.
So, to recap, for magic items, most of the time the caster level value isn't needed.
OK. There is a lot of incomplete/incorrect info here, so let's start at the top:
If I find a suit of +1 leather armor, how do I go about determining its special ability?
The spell Detect Magic can determine that the armor is magical. Spellcraft DC = 15 + Item's CL.
The spell Identify gives you a +10 Enhancement bonus to the spellcraft check.
If you make the check, you identify the properties of a magic item.
The GM will inform you what the various abilities do, if you make the check. A plain "+1" is a bonus to the d20 roll and to the damage roll. "Glamored" is a way to hide what the item is. And so on.
What is meant by base price?
This is the standard book price for an item. The crafting cost will be different.
Like +1 bonus compared to a gp value
The +X Bonus is a way of pricing things with a variable amount of gp. You total the bonus number, and for +X total, the additional price is +X*X*1000 for armor and +X*X*2000 for weapons. So, the more bonus price you have, the higher the total gp.
A magic weapon or magic armor may have an enhancement bonus of +5 with another +5 worth of abilities. So a weapon could be a +5 Flaming Burst Speed Longsword
Not quite right. Magic armor and weapons can have up to +10 effective bonus. They must have at least +1 Enhancement bonus, and can have up to +5 Enhancement bonus. It is acceptable to have a weapon of effective +9 bonus be only a +1 enhancement, since the other +8 are for effects other than enhancement.
Additionally, if I found a +2 sword, how do I make it a cruel sword as well?
Cruel is listed as a +1 bonus. For the +2 sword to become a +2 Cruel sword, it becomes an effective +3 bonus weapon, which adds the price of (3*3)*2000 - (2*2)*2000 gp [=10000 gp]. Cruel has a minimum CL of 5. The +2 sword has a min CL of 6. The maximum of these is 6. Therefore, a magic item crafter must be at least 6th level to make this. They need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, and access to the cause fear and death knell spells. The time needed is 10 days at normal magic crafting speed. If you make this yourself, you can save 1/2 the upgrade price, since the cost is half the price. Otherwise, you pay the full upgrade.
Like glamered for instance, on the d20 site is only listed as a +2 special ability
Glamered is a flat cost effect, not a +X Bonus effect. It's price is 2700, no matter how many bonus are on the armor. The +2 table on d20PFSRD is a random treasue generation table for things no more than +2, but more than +1. Note: there is also a Glamared ability for weapons, but is has a different price.
Seems wrong to me that the same bonus adds exponentially more to the cost, without the ability also growing in strength.
Yep. You got it. Price for better stuff goes up exponentially.
This means that while +1 weapon is +1 attack/+1 damage to werewolf, +3 weapon is +3 attack/+13 damage because it ignores lycantrope's damage resistance.
No. The +3 is still +3 attack/+3 damage, but you don't 'waste' 10 points of the damage overcomming the DR 10/silver like you did with the +1 weapon.
Is that referencing the level you need to be to use the item or make the item?
I'm confused because it doesnt list a CL in the construction requirements, and like most sections in the rulebook, the explanation is quite vague.
The CL is listed. Under the craft arms and armor feat, you have the requirement of 3 CL per 1 enhancement. Under each ability, you have a specific CL level, like the CL5 for Cruel listed above.
This CL is for crafting, and for dispelling effects. Any idiot fighter can use it.
This is where things get a bit fuzzy. Pathfinder FAQ doesn't enforce caster levels for magic item crafting. This often allows you craft magic items much earlier than what the caster levels suggest. Unless it says otherwise elsewhere, assume that caster level is just a suggestion.
It is enforced, however, there is a defined way to skip a CL requirement by increasing the crafting DC.
On p. 484, Metamagic Empower says it has a caster level of 17, but the crafting requirements don't list it as a requirement.
You are confusing the CL for effects related to the item, and the CL needed to make the item. Dispel Magic needs to dispel CL 17 to affect the rod, but there is no specific caster level minimum to make the rod.
However, the spell Make Whole can magically repair items that are half your caster level.
Assuming it is broken and not expended. Greater Make Whole can get your level repaired.
I would also enforce minimum caster levels for consumable magic items to be the minimum needed to cast the spell.
This is the default for the listed price. However, you can get non-standard items at higher levels by paying more. You MUST track anything that is non-standard, or your GM will only let you do minimum CL.
/cevah
Just to add to Cevah's response.
The CL of the item is also how hard it is to make it. Taking the example of the Metamagic Empower Rod at CL 17, it would require a Sellcraft (or other related skill) check of Base 5 + CL 17 = 22 to craft the item. If you don't have some of the requirements, each missing requirement makes the skill check go up by 5. If you want to craft it half the time (based on the market value), you can also add 5 to the skill check.
For the +2 Cruel Sword, it would be at 5 + 6 = 11. Making it faster would be 16. Not being 6th caster level, would also make it 16. Doing both, would make it 21. Not having one of the two spells required would also make it 16. Not having both would make it 21. (Etc.)
For all items, you must have the Crafting feat. For a few items (potions, scrolls, and something else I am forgetting), you also require access to the spell (whether from you, another member of your party, a daily use item, a number of expendable items based on how many days you are crafting, etc.).
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
