Sorry if this has been asked before but its a little complicated to be easily put into search terms.
Using spellstrike gloves a magus can use spellstrike to deliver one ranged magus spell as if it were a touch spell. The description of the item specifically states slow as a viable option.
So my question is when Slow is delivered via a melee touch or melee attack in this way, does the recipient still make the Will save as normal or is the spell assumed to automatically be effective by virtue of the melee touch or melee attack?
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The gloves don't say anything about removing the save, so the target still gets to roll
It seems like something is wrong with this picture. Requiring both touch rolls and saving throws gives the opponents 2 chances for the spells to fail. Normally, most spells have 1 chance to fail.
As for the slow spell, it allows 1 target per level. Does this mean a character with the gloves may make that many touch attacks, or only one?
I think the prudent action is sell the gloves and pick something else.
So the real question is why in Desna's name you'd deliver slow as a touch attack...
The better example for this situation gloves is (old) Snowball. Requires a ranged attack roll and the target would have a fortitude save to avoid being staggered for a round.
In fact, I think something like Snowball is one of the only "good" examples, since it calls out rays (lv11 scorching ray as a touch attack?) as no go.
JiaYou, Scorching Ray IS a touch attack. A RANGED touch attack, but still a touch attack.
Nothing about the item says it removes saving throws, so saving throws still happen. Remember that, if you miss with a melee touch attack spell, you keep holding the charge until you SUCCEED and discharge it.
JiaYou wrote: So the real question is why in Desna's name you'd deliver slow as a touch attack...
The better example for this situation gloves is (old) Snowball. Requires a ranged attack roll and the target would have a fortitude save to avoid being staggered for a round.
In fact, I think something like Snowball is one of the only "good" examples, since it calls out rays (lv11 scorching ray as a touch attack?) as no go.
Because you want to do a full round of melee attacks, and there is one guy you are in melee with and you want him hit with slow instead of shocking grasp.
Being able to turn any spell into a touch attack means you can use Spell Strike and use your weapon to deliver the spell as an attack.
Hmmm that's fair, but I feel like I'd want to deliver that spell with just Spell Combat to make sure it lands...and it's weird, but the first half of the gloves' description implies you could use it with plain Spell Combat, but the second half says, "So you can use it with Spellstrike" when it should in fact read "Spell Combat" since if it can't be used with Spell Combat, it can't be used with Spellstrike.
JiaYou wrote: since if it can't be used with Spell Combat, it can't be used with Spellstrike. Not true.
Spell combat lets you cast a spell and make attacks using the same full round action.
Spell Strike let's you attack with your weapon instead of making a touch attack.
They can be used together, but they don't have to be.
OmniMage wrote: It seems like something is wrong with this picture. Requiring both touch rolls and saving throws gives the opponents 2 chances for the spells to fail. Normally, most spells have 1 chance to fail. Yes, there may be two chances to fail, but you are getting an extra melee attack as well. In addition, as Zarius pointed out, you retain the charge if you miss, so you don't immediately lose the spell, so the first "chance to fail" ONLY TAKES PLACE if the spell discharges accidentally.
OmniMage wrote: As for the slow spell, it allows 1 target per level. Does this mean a character with the gloves may make that many touch attacks, or only one?
I think the prudent action is sell the gloves and pick something else.
Gloves, Spellstrike wrote: Three times per day, the gloves allow the wearer to treat a ranged magus spell as a spell with a range of “touch,” allowing him to deliver the spell with his spellstrike ability. The glove can only affect spells that normally affect one or more creatures at a range greater than “touch” (such as slow), not rays or other created effects. The altered spell only affects the creature attacked (any other targets normally allowed by the spell are lost). As an aside, I think in the discussion here we should also be careful to distinguish between whether we mean to say touch spells or touch attacks.
TL;DR @Ratna
Your melee attack only delivers the spell. Any effects after that shouldn't be affected, so they should still get the saving throw!
I think the answers provided are sufficient.
There is no mention of removing saves, so they still occur.
The two chances to fail is mitigated by the spell not being discharged on a miss.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
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