Got a player playing an interesting build. This build allows him to channel both negative and positive energy. This causes an issue with the holy vindicators stigmata which gives you a bonus depending on if you channel positive or negative energy. Being able to channel both through a loop hole should the player have to choose one or the other or because he can channel both should he be allowed to gain both?
Yeah, just let him choose which one he wants. I would limit him to having to choose between the sacred or profane bonus rather than having both at the same time, since they technically do stack and would be a bit OP if you could get both.
Yeah, just let him choose which one he wants. I would limit him to having to choose between the sacred or profane bonus rather than having both at the same time, since they technically do stack and would be a bit OP if you could get both.
And I agree with you; honestly, him finding a loop hole to allow him to channel both was a little ridiculous but if do that I do want to reward him some how as well... I mean he did put all this work into the build just to get both so any ideas on that?
And I agree with you; honestly, him finding a loop hole to allow him to channel both was a little ridiculous but if do that I do want to reward him some how as well... I mean he did put all this work into the build just to get both so any ideas on that?
I don't see the problem. He put in a lot of work into getting a build that can channel positive and negative energy, and he ended up with exactly what he was looking for. From the sounds of it he did it without the versatile channeler feat so presumably he's not even taking the (rather punitive, IMO) penalty the feat normally imparts. The Holy Vindicator is actually a pretty top-notch prestige class these days now that the prestigious spellcaster feat exists to cancel its primary drawback. If he's got a fun, interesting, and powerful character that has the specific abilities he was looking for, there's no need for the GM to intervene.
I guess you're right. The build is pretty cool and completely legal. Done through class combination rather than feat manipulation and turns into a very viable and flexible char so I'll leave it at that.
Unless I am missing something, the bonuses happen WHEN a channel happens, so when this Vindicator channels positive, he gains a sacred bonus and when he channels negative he gains a profane bonus.
No need to choose or any thing. If there are bonuses that are always on, unrelated to actually channeling energy, I'd make the player choose which one and have that always apply.
Unless I am missing something, the bonuses happen WHEN a channel happens, so when this Vindicator channels positive, he gains a sacred bonus and when he channels negative he gains a profane bonus.
No need to choose or any thing. If there are bonuses that are always on, unrelated to actually channeling energy, I'd make the player choose which one and have that always apply.
The bonuses happen when the class activates the ability stigmata.
Stigmata (Su): A vindicator willingly gives his blood in service to his faith, and is marked by scarified wounds appropriate to his deity. He may stop or start the flow of blood by force of will as a standard action; at 6th level it becomes a move action, and at 10th level it becomes a swift action. Activating stigmata causes bleed damage equal to half the vindicator's class level, and this bleed damage is not halted by curative magic. While the stigmata are bleeding, the vindicator gains a sacred bonus (if he channels positive energy) or profane bonus (if he channels negative energy) equal to half his class level. Each time he activates his stigmata, the vindicator decides if the bonus applies to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Armor Class, caster level checks, or saving throws; to change what the bonus applies to, the vindicator must deactivate and reactivate his stigmata.
Paladins in pathfinder don't have to have a God so the wounds would be appropriate to his ideals.
I agree with Dave. Unlike channel energy there is no choice involved in Stigma. If he channels positive it is a sacred bonus, if negative it is a profane bonus. Since bonuses from the same source never stack it should not be a problem.
I agree with Dave. Unlike channel energy there is no choice involved in Stigma. If he channels positive it is a sacred bonus, if negative it is a profane bonus. Since bonuses from the same source never stack it should not be a problem.
It is a problem:
Vindicator’s Shield (Su)
A vindicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action; when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (if positive energy) or profane bonus (if negative energy) to his Armor Class equal to the number of dice of the vindicator’s channel energy. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first. The shield does not provide this bonus to any other wielder, but the vindicator does not need to be holding the shield for it to retain this power.
There's nothing stopping the vindicator from channeling positive into the shield, then channeling negative, and stacking both the sacred and profane bonus.
So we agree then that holy vindicator was never designed with this loophole in mind.
Since this guy can channel like flipping God; Channel Energy (Su): The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability; he can boost his shield to... okay, need to find a weakness for this char now to be able to challenge him. Thanks guys.
Even if the bonuses are a different type they are still from the same source. There was a thread about a paladin getting CHA to saves twice. I don’t remember the exact thread but I do remember that it did not work because the source of the bonus was the same. Just like this the bonus type were different, but it still was not legal.
Un-typed bonuses are the same bonus with the difference of what it is; reference stacking dex and Wis for monks ac unlike armor and bracers of armor; one being magical and the other being mundane but give the same exact bonus so don't stack.
A sacred bonus and a profane bonus are two different types of bonus. Vindicators shield simply allows you to use the required abilities, channel positive/negative energy, in a new way.
Interestingly the weapon ability gray flame seems to be specifically tied to the channel smite feat that the vidicator gets for free. As it states thus:
Gray flame
This weapon responds to channeled positive and negative energy.
When the wielder spends a swift action to channel energy through the weapon, it ignites with a strange gray flame that sheds light as a torch, increases the weapon’s enhancement bonus by +1, and deals +1d6 damage (as the divine power from flame strike) to creatures struck by the weapon. This flame lasts for 1 round for every d6 of damage or healing the channeling normally provides. When charged with positive energy, the flame is a silvery gray, good creatures are immune to the weapon’s extra damage, and the weapon counts as a good and silver weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. When charged with negative energy, the flame is an ashen gray, evil creatures are immune to the weapon’s extra damage, and the weapon counts as an evil and cold iron weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
Channel smite
Before you make a melee attack roll, you can choose to spend one use of your channel energy ability as a swift action. If you channel positive energy and you hit an undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel positive energy ability. If you channel negative energy and you hit a living creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel negative energy ability. Your target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If your attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect.
While not stated in the ability it is implied you are channeling through the weapon; additional damage equal to.
As activating one will cause the other to activate since it's stated like an if then statement in a computer; if person does this then this happens.
These bonuses would also stack with other such smite abilities for damage; such as smite evil/good but couldn't be activated in the same round due to the one swift action a round limitation.