Hello,
I know there are a lot of threads out there about this, but that's just the problem, there's over a thousand of them, and I find it too time consuming to try and find what I'm looking for. I'm not that young or patient anymore.
In my attempt to understand how it costs to make a new magic, I first decided to create one from scratch. Using table 15-29 on page 550 of the Core Rules, I applied what I thought were the right base price multipliers and/or adjustments, but... well this is why I'm here.
So then, I figured I'd try to replicate an already existing one. The item I chose, is the Ring of Regeneration found in the Ultimate Equipement on page 172.
Ring of Regeneration
Base price: 90 000 GP
Construction cost: 45 000 GP
I believe, that this requires the Continuous rule for base price, which says:
Spell level x Caster level x 2000 GP, but that adds up to either:
1- If you use the minimum caster level required to cast Regenerate.
Base price: 7 x 13 x 2000 = 182 000 GP
or
2- If you use the level 15 found in the description of the ring in Ultimate Equipment.
Base price: 7 x 15 x 2000 = 210 000 GP
In case 1, that's twice the base price found in Ultimate Equipement
In case 2, it's 2.3 times the base price.
So in either case, the construction cost equals the base price.
Someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong? What have I missed?.
Thank you.
I guess the ‘what you missed’ is that while there are guidelines, Paizo very often (probably ‘usually’ is the correct term) didn’t follow them for specific items. It looks like you are doing the calculation right.
Ring of Regeneration
Regenerate (spell)
The ring of regeneration doesn't do what the spell does. In some ways the ring is more convenient, but there is no straight comparison between the two.
So this basically dives straight into the part where the GM needs to adjust the price based on how useful the item is. Ring of Regeneration happens to be much cheaper than the spell because if you could invoke the spell instead it would be much better than what the ring actually does.
The same applies to Ring of Invisibility. Invisibility is a low level spell and the ring has a low caster level. Despite that, its way more expensive than the formula because being invisible at will as many times as you want is worth way more than the formula would indicate.
The part after you figure out the formula is you look at the item and try to judge just how useful the item is. If it seems cheap, raise the price. If you could get something else that performs better for cheaper its probably too expensive...unless it has other benefits. But price adjustments are probably in order.
Mostly its best to not let players make custom items and if they want to, they should tell the GM what they want and wait for the GM to get back with what it will actually cost.
Meirril wrote: Ring of Regeneration
Regenerate (spell)
The ring of regeneration doesn't do what the spell does. In some ways the ring is more convenient, but there is no straight comparison between the two.
So this basically dives straight into the part where the GM needs to adjust the price based on how useful the item is. Ring of Regeneration happens to be much cheaper than the spell because if you could invoke the spell instead it would be much better than what the ring actually does.
The same applies to Ring of Invisibility. Invisibility is a low level spell and the ring has a low caster level. Despite that, its way more expensive than the formula because being invisible at will as many times as you want is worth way more than the formula would indicate.
The part after you figure out the formula is you look at the item and try to judge just how useful the item is. If it seems cheap, raise the price. If you could get something else that performs better for cheaper its probably too expensive...unless it has other benefits. But price adjustments are probably in order.
Mostly its best to not let players make custom items and if they want to, they should tell the GM what they want and wait for the GM to get back with what it will actually cost.
Meirril, the ring isn't cheaper than the spell. On it's own, if we apply the rules from table 6-9 Good and Services on page 159, then it would only cost 2 275 GP to have an NPC cast the spell.
Going further down this path, hypothetically, if you add the cost of a masterwork ring (16 GP 7 SP, taken from a signet ring which costs 5 GP x 3.33 which is the factor for something to be of masterwork level), plus the cost of a Permanency spell, which in this case would be 17 500 GP, you arrive at 19 791 GP and 7 SP.
Still under half the price of the ring. So it still doesn't answer the question of how to obtain the book's base price, using the rules from the table.
I tried more single ability items (over by at least 25%), multiple ability items (UNDER by 45%).
The only book item I was successfully able to duplicate the cost (down to the last copper piece), is the Ring of Return. At this point, I think it's more of a fluke or an exception.
So I'm still hoping someone can tell me what to do to arrive to those same prices (with a reasonable margin of error of course).
Lelomenia wrote: I guess the ‘what you missed’ is that while there are guidelines, Paizo very often (probably ‘usually’ is the correct term) didn’t follow them for specific items. It looks like you are doing the calculation right. I guess you're right, but I hate how it's way too random and open to debate. That a DM doesn't want one of his players to have an item he or she wants to create is one thing. That can be open for debate and discussion as to why? But the how much? That should be much easier.
LoupSolitaire wrote: Lelomenia wrote: I guess the ‘what you missed’ is that while there are guidelines, Paizo very often (probably ‘usually’ is the correct term) didn’t follow them for specific items. It looks like you are doing the calculation right. I guess you're right, but I hate how it's way too random and open to debate. That a DM doesn't want one of his players to have an item he or she wants to create is one thing. That can be open for debate and discussion as to why? But the how much? That should be much easier. That's mostly a GM call for balance reasons. Typically anything in the core rule books come across directly and are good for play. Personally as a GM I would not disallow something to be made, but may set the price slightly high, and include a research period to figure out how make a non-standard item to better represent it's uniqueness.
Jared Walter 356 wrote: LoupSolitaire wrote: Lelomenia wrote: I guess the ‘what you missed’ is that while there are guidelines, Paizo very often (probably ‘usually’ is the correct term) didn’t follow them for specific items. It looks like you are doing the calculation right. I guess you're right, but I hate how it's way too random and open to debate. That a DM doesn't want one of his players to have an item he or she wants to create is one thing. That can be open for debate and discussion as to why? But the how much? That should be much easier. That's mostly a GM call for balance reasons. Typically anything in the core rule books come across directly and are good for play. Personally as a GM I would not disallow something to be made, but may set the price slightly high, and include a research period to figure out how make a non-standard item to better represent it's uniqueness. I agree Jared.
LoupSolitaire wrote: Meirril wrote: Ring of Regeneration
Regenerate (spell)
The ring of regeneration doesn't do what the spell does. In some ways the ring is more convenient, but there is no straight comparison between the two.
So this basically dives straight into the part where the GM needs to adjust the price based on how useful the item is. Ring of Regeneration happens to be much cheaper than the spell because if you could invoke the spell instead it would be much better than what the ring actually does.
The same applies to Ring of Invisibility. Invisibility is a low level spell and the ring has a low caster level. Despite that, its way more expensive than the formula because being invisible at will as many times as you want is worth way more than the formula would indicate.
The part after you figure out the formula is you look at the item and try to judge just how useful the item is. If it seems cheap, raise the price. If you could get something else that performs better for cheaper its probably too expensive...unless it has other benefits. But price adjustments are probably in order.
Mostly its best to not let players make custom items and if they want to, they should tell the GM what they want and wait for the GM to get back with what it will actually cost.
Meirril, the ring isn't cheaper than the spell. On it's own, if we apply the rules from table 6-9 Good and Services on page 159, then it would only cost 2 275 GP to have an NPC cast the spell.
Going further down this path, hypothetically, if you add the cost of a masterwork ring (16 GP 7 SP, taken from a signet ring which costs 5 GP x 3.33 which is the factor for something to be of masterwork level), plus the cost of a Permanency spell, which in this case would be 17 500 GP, you arrive at 19 791 GP and 7 SP.
Still under half the price of the ring. So it still doesn't answer the question of... Remember your OP post? The one where you quoted the minimum price of 182,000gp when you actually used the guidelines to figure out how much a continual use magic item that cast regenerate would be valued at? That is what I was talking about.
This example you brought up makes no sense what so ever because it completely ignores the guidelines of making magic items. Never do that when trying to judge a magic item. Hiring a NPC to cast a spell once is always going to be cheaper than even a scroll or a wand to cast the same spell. That NPC also won't cast the spell for that price if you intend to wander into a dangerous situation, or out of town even in most cases.
If you can't figure that much out, I'd say that this section of the rules is probably not suited for your use.
Is there any item crafting rule tips out there in any of the books? The last place I remember seeing something like that was in the DND 3.0 book Tome and Blood.
OmniMage wrote: Is there any item crafting rule tips out there in any of the books? The last place I remember seeing something like that was in the DND 3.0 book Tome and Blood. The core rule book has a section on page 549 and 550 for this. These are intended as guidelines for creating new items, and also come with the warning that not all items follow those formulas.
In a PFS game, it's a mute point because characters can't take crafting feats. In normal play, These guidelines are subject to GM approval.
In general the core rule book crafting cost structures are fine, the only problem is with crafting continuous effect items. There is no consistent system that works for those; the spells themselves are balanced by duration and often by the opportunity cost of an in-combat standard action. You are still probably fine using their costing for any hour/level or 10min/level duration spells, but shorter than that things get skewed.
You also have to consider that the ring of regeneration only heals 1 hp per round, whereas the proposed continuous ring of regenerate would heal 4d8+13 hp per round. This is on top of being a better regenerate effect that doesn't require the loss of limb to happen while wearing the ring.
LoupSolitaire wrote: Someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong? What have I missed? You missed rule 1:
Quote: Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table 15–29. /cevah
I'm finding it difficult to find information beyond the core rulebook and tome and blood. I say you should use your best judgement. Use the table to find a good starting point and work from there.
Obviously, magic items that conform to the norms should follow the rules closely. For instance scrolls, potions, and wands. Magic items that create a entirely new or different effect will require at least some consideration if the rules priced that item appropriately.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
