What happens if a god's herald dies?

[Yqatuba]

By the RAW it IS possible to bring back an outsider but requires true ressurection, wish, or miracle. I assume the god can cast these but also, with the gods not being omnipotent, have only a finite about of ability to do this so would NOT just shrug off having their herald die. What I'm wondering is: how would the god react to their herald dying if the players call it with greater planar ally or the like? Would they get in trouble? My guess is it depends on the god and why the herald died in the first place.

[Val'bryn2]

I can only think of one time that a herald died in Golarion lore, it was Sarenrae's herald, murdered by people who were ostensibly her followers. She smote the whole city.

The important thing to remember is that the herald will only respond to Planar Ally spells at the behest of the god, or deciding for themselves it would be appropriate. If summoned that way, I am certain the deity would be very saddened, but would likely forgive the players, as it would likely be obvious they were doing it for the right reasons.

If it were called via Planar Binding, it gets a little trickier, because that's not just calling for help, it's extraplanar slavery. The PCs would have to do some fast talking to show why what they were doing was important enough to warrant the attention of the right hand of a deity.

At either case, you have the potential for interesting plot hooks now. You're right, a simple raise dead won't work. Resurrection is iffy, too, otherwise Sarenrae's herald wouldn't have been replaced. Perhaps there is a specific quest they need to undertake, a ritual to bring back the dead herald. The deity tasks the pcs for that, since the death would be their responsibility, a life for a life and all that. Next we have obligation: the deity probably owes a favor to the one who told them about the ritual, likely Sarenrae because she had reason to research the ritual. Look into the lore, there's all the problems of the Cult of the Dawnflower and how they don't exhibit the qualities Sarenrae tries to exhibit. Perhaps it goes back to Gormuz, the high priestess of the city was a mortal daughter of Sarenrae, and survived the destruction as a lich. Mythic tiers to be able to grant spells, and suddenly you have the reason for Gormuz to happen when it's out of character for Sarenrae, and someone that can be the target of Sarenrae's favor from the other deity.

[Val'bryn2]

Have to correct myself, it also happened with arazni, the herald of Aroden before Iomedae. Killed by the Whispering Tyrant. Obviously she got replaced, but no record of Aroden's reaction

[Tarik Blackhands]

Generally speaking the deity either raises it or they just respawn in due time on their own accord depending on who it is.

The Old Man has a schtick about occasionally letting himself die to provide proper kung fu mentor motivation for whoever his student is at the time and turns up fine later.

Mother's Maw has been noted as being dumpstered a few times and gotten back in time.

Tawil at'Umr is respawned sometime/someplace by Yog Sothoth in event of death, etc.

[Jeven]

It is a possible outcome in one of the APs as well. One of the PCs can even replace the Herald in the AP postscript.

[JDawg75]

They'd probably just select another being to be their herald if they needed to.

[Weables]

I imagine the god would be a little upset.

[Klorox]

Seriously? he just goes and gets another herald to do his dirty, faraway work, just look at Galactus, how many herald has he been through?

[blahpers]

That's a decent question--why didn't Sarenrae resurrect her Herald, anyway? I first thought there was some kind of divine clause preventing it, but there are plenty of instances where Heralds return after death, so it'd have to be a situational restriction of some sort.

[Brolof]

blahpers wrote:

That's a decent question--why didn't Sarenrae resurrect her Herald, anyway? I first thought there was some kind of divine clause preventing it, but there are plenty of instances where Heralds return after death, so it'd have to be a situational restriction of some sort.

If I had to guess, it probably had something to do with the fact that said herald is now corrupted and much stronger than any of the other heralds... They give him stats in one of the Mythic supplements I think, I can't remember which one.

[Val'bryn2]

I think you're thinking of Arazni, who got brought back as a lich by Geb.

[blahpers]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

I think you're thinking of Arazni, who got brought back as a lich by Geb.

Yup, wrong Herald.

[Dave Justus]

blahpers wrote:

That's a decent question--why didn't Sarenrae resurrect her Herald, anyway? I first thought there was some kind of divine clause preventing it, but there are plenty of instances where Heralds return after death, so it'd have to be a situational restriction of some sort.

He probably didn't want to return to life. Last mission was pretty much a total mess and a failure, lots of death. Plus, the boss had gotten a bit smitey which might make one not want to work for her anyway.

(Yeah, it would be nice if someone got some revenge for me if I was killed, but a whole city seems a lot more than necessary)

Another possibility of course is that Sarenrae didn't bring him back because
a) she wanted to do some smiting and smiting in response to a death doesn't look so justified if the dead guy is still around
b) she smote first, then realized that if she brought him back the smiting would look really unjustified.

[Yqatuba]

Here's another idea: if, say, Gorum's herald was killed might he decide that makes him unworthy of being brought back and therefore choose a new herald? That seems in character for him.

[Gug on the Silver Mountain]

Gods are able to res heralds.

Inner Sea Gods wrote:

The Stabbing Beast does not believe that anything other than its master can kill it, despite mortal records that show it has been killed in the past; Norgorber wiped its memory of these failures when he resurrected his herald.

I guess Sarenrae just like, didn't.

[blahpers]

Gug on the Silver Mountain wrote:

I guess Sarenrae just like, didn't.

Thanks to this post, headcanon now clearly indicates that the thought never occurred to Sarenrae because, well, she is a bit of a ditz. She also now speaks with a southern Californian dialect. I hope you're happy.

[Yqatuba]

Maybe what the people of Gormuz did to him was so horrible he didn't want to be brought back.

[MageHunter]

Perhaps it's a balance thing. Only Evil gods can resurrect their herald's. It explains Arazni as well.

I don't know why, cosmic imbalance or something.

[Paradozen]

blahpers wrote:

That's a decent question--why didn't Sarenrae resurrect her Herald, anyway? I first thought there was some kind of divine clause preventing it, but there are plenty of instances where Heralds return after death, so it'd have to be a situational restriction of some sort.

I see three situations as plausible personally.

1) Her herald did not want to be brought back. They felt like they had fallen too easily, or perhaps they felt they had done enough in their lifetimes that staying dead was ideal.

2) Her herald died in a manner that prevents true resurrection from working. What specifically this would be is speculation, maybe a red mantis priest knew a secret technique, or part of the body of the herald was used in some profane ritual which stopped it, or similar.

3) As you mention, it might be in the divine relations. It happened in a location so close to a place crucial to Rovagug that resurrecting the herald was perhaps seen as a step too far and thus unacceptable.

There is a hidden fourth option that maybe the herald had died in the past already (since sarenrae is the goddess of second chances, not third chances) and so it was not in her best interest to bring him back, but I feel like that would have been recorded somewhere and I sure haven't seen it.

[Brolof]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

I think you're thinking of Arazni, who got brought back as a lich by Geb.

No, I just went and looked it up. It's in Mythic Realms, though I got it a bit wrong. Kohal, Sarenrae's Herald, is resurrected as a unique 3 armed planetar who's completely insane and in service to Rovagug. Though it was 100 years after the fact, so perhaps it had something to do with his corpse being that close to Rovagug's prison?

[Val'bryn2]

Ah, never read Mythic Realms. Strange, but Sarenrae has been written in contradictory ways.

[blahpers]

Huh, didn't know about that one. I can understand Aroden abandoning his Herald since he apparently was stuck in a navel gazing loop or something, but Sarenrae? That's, like, totally bogus.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Isn't there something somewhere about Norgorber's herald, the Stabbing Beast, believing it has never been defeated because every time it is Norgorber just resurrects it without the memory of the defeat ?