So I have been reading Double Slice in the book and trying to find as much information on this specific ruling as possible. It has caused a heated conversation between the DM and a player in our group, no matter how much I look I can't seem to find the answer.
"Double Slice
Make one Strike (see page 308) with each of your two melee weapons, each at your current
multiple attack penalty. The second Strike takes a –2 circumstance penalty if it’s made with
a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait (see page 182). If both attacks hit, combine the
attacks’ damage, and then add any other applicable enhancements from both weapons. For
purposes of resistances and weaknesses, this is considered a single Strike. This counts as
two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty (see page 305)."
"STRIKE
You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with
an unarmed attack, targeting one creature within your reach
(for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack). Roll
the attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using
and compare the result to the target creature’s AC to determine
the effect. See Melee Strikes and Ranged Strikes on page 17 for
details on calculating your attack and damage rolls.
Success You deal damage according to the weapon or unarmed
attack, including any circumstance and conditional bonuses
and penalties.
Critical Success You critically succeed at an attack roll, dealing
double damage. See the Critical Hit Damage sidebar above
for more information."
Now the question seems to be, is this single strike counted as 2 strikes in the sense that it can be a single strike against two different targets with your separate weapons (1 attack on one target, 1 attack on the second target)
Our DM insists that the ruling specifically says you get 2 separate strikes (Up to 2 targets), but I keep on reading it as 1 Strike, with both attacks being a singular strike. (On the same target)
Can I use Double slice as an attack on 2 separate targets, or is it 2 attacks on 1 target?
Edit: Included the actual wording of Double Slice and Strike, as well as bold on the parts causing the confusion.
I don't see any wording that says that it MUST be against a single target, but the "combine the damage" wording seems to imply that it SHOULD be.
I'm just going to wind up saying what draco said but longer. By RAW there's nothing stopping you from hitting multiple things and annihilating your enemies with what are effectively auto crits at that point but RAI I'm pretty sure they want you to stick to one target so the system isn't too busted since they don't actually tell you to distribute the damage.
"Autocrits"? Really? Even two attacks at a 0 MAP you've still got to roll a natural 20 to crit (and have a 50% miss chance). The whole "10 or better" thing doesn't apply unless your fighting mobs of low level enemies.
Draco18s wrote: "Autocrits"? Really? Even two attacks at a 0 MAP you've still got to roll a natural 20 to crit (and have a 50% miss chance). The whole "10 or better" thing doesn't apply unless your fighting mobs of low level enemies. He's saying that RAW if you hit two separate targets then they wold each take the damage for both strikes, equivalent to a crit on each foe.
Obviously not how it's supposed to work but that's not what he's saying.
Also why do people keep insisting you can only crit on 20s? With simple battlefield maneuvering and debuff work I ROUTINELY see our melee specialists getting 20% or better crit rates against equal-level enemies, more against lower level, and even against higher level enemies they can swing 10-15% sometimes depending on the foe.
And that's if no one lands a grade 2 condition (Frightened 2, Sluggish 2, etc.)
Edge93 wrote: Also why do people keep insisting you can only crit on 20s? With simple battlefield maneuvering and debuff work I ROUTINELY see our melee specialists getting 20% or better crit rates against equal-level enemies, more against lower level, and even against higher level enemies they can swing 10-15% sometimes depending on the foe. I have yet to see a crit on anything less than an 18, except for very low enemies, even with bonuses/penalties. Also, "battlefield positioning" and "debuff work" rarely stack. Almost everything is a conditional penalty (or is it circumstance? Flanking, flat footed, and most spells are all the same type). The math also assumes you'll have about a 2 net bonus/penalty (monster AC is about 2 higher than an equal level PC).
Quote: And that's if no one lands a grade 2 condition (Frightened 2, Sluggish 2, etc.) Half the conditions don't stack with flat footed. Its right annoying. And oh yeah, grade 2s only happen on a crit fail of the save, which can't be relied on.
Draco18s wrote: Edge93 wrote: Also why do people keep insisting you can only crit on 20s? With simple battlefield maneuvering and debuff work I ROUTINELY see our melee specialists getting 20% or better crit rates against equal-level enemies, more against lower level, and even against higher level enemies they can swing 10-15% sometimes depending on the foe. I have yet to see a crit on anything less than an 18, except for very low enemies, even with bonuses/penalties. Also, "battlefield positioning" and "debuff work" rarely stack. Almost everything is a conditional penalty (or is it circumstance? Flanking, flat footed, and most spells are all the same type). The math also assumes you'll have about a 2 net bonus/penalty (monster AC is about 2 higher than an equal level PC).
Quote: And that's if no one lands a grade 2 condition (Frightened 2, Sluggish 2, etc.) Half the conditions don't stack with flat footed. Its right annoying. And oh yeah, grade 2s only happen on a crit fail of the save, which can't be relied on. Most conditions impose a Conditional Penalty (At least all of the ones with a number value), Flanking/Flat-Footed is Circumstance. So a lot of spells do stack with Flanking. Also Demoralize is pretty reliable.
Also Fear, Enervation, and I know something else I'm forgetting inflict grade 2 debuffs on a regular failure.
I'll come by later with some actual math but I'm a bit busy right now.
Was in fact saying that a lack of clarity in the RAW regarding damage distribution to multiple targets means that it would apply the combined damage to both targets, an idea I shortened into saying auto crits which I guess wasn't clear, my b.
2nd column of page 291 has the penalties rules, I wouldn't bother with the math. Can confirm conditionals stack with FF/circumstance.
If you've been playing without stacking them makes perfect sense why you might think critting is possible only on a 20.
Regardless this isn't the discussion topic and I'd like to think we've successfully covered the question at hand.
RAW yes multiple targets.
RAI no multiple targets.
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