Core monk is often as accurate (lvl 5-8) or more so (lvl 9-20) in flurry.Ok but that's not the question, would a crane style monk even bother using flurry is what i'm asking.
I don't have access to my books at the moment, so could you explain how it would be inaccurate?
I don't have access to my books at the moment, so could you explain how it would be inaccurate?Core monk is often as accurate (lvl 5-8) or more so (lvl 9-20) in flurry.Ok but that's not the question, would a crane style monk even bother using flurry is what i'm asking.
Crane style is defensive in nature, you take a -2 malus to attacks in exchange for a +1 bonus to AC.
Flurry in interesting in that it offers more attacks, ergo more chances to hit. As @Lelomenia pointed out, at higher levels the flurry penalty to hit disappears.
The real question is why a monk would actually focus on crane style if his goal is to attack accurately (with as high a bonus as possible)
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I don't have access to my books at the moment, so could you explain how it would be inaccurate?Core monk is often as accurate (lvl 5-8) or more so (lvl 9-20) in flurry.Ok but that's not the question, would a crane style monk even bother using flurry is what i'm asking.
Ok so long story short. Flurry of blows functions like two weapon fighting meaning that every attack takes a -2 to hit.
Crane style centers around one fighting defensively which if you have the feats take another -2 to hit meaning that every attack you have with flurry takes a -4,which makes it horrendously unreliable and even more so considering that the monk is a 3/4th bab class.
And no, you can't take combat style master because crane style is one of those styles where you can't swap out on the fly cause then it will be even more inaccurate since fighting defensively lasts until the start of your next turn.
So with this in mind would a crane style user just ignore flurry entirely?
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Flurry in interesting in that it offers more attacks, ergo more chances to hit. As @Lelomenia pointed out, at higher levels the flurry penalty to hit disappears.
The real question is why a monk would actually focus on crane style if his goal is to attack accurately (with as high a bonus as possible)
Actually the idea is the opposite, would a monk that focus's on crane style even bother with flurry? That's the question.
From that perspective, the monk might want to wait till the flurry penalty is reduced or repealed, but there is no real reason he would refrain from flurrying from 5th level on, as his bonus is as good, or better than his normal attack bonus.
It also depends on the situation. For example if the monk is fighting a horde of minions I can see him using both at the same time.
Also once the monk completes the style chain he is only taking a -1 to hit, and getting a +4 to AC. At that point why would he not use crane style?
The crane style abilities aren't always "on," are they? I would think they only apply when activated, and the monk would function as normal otherwise. IRL, a martial artist doesn't go around in crane stance, using crane style attacks and defenses at the expense of moves that would work better in the moment.
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Crane style centers around one fighting defensively which if you have the feats take another -2 to hit meaning that every attack you have with flurry takes a -4,which makes it horrendously unreliable and even more so considering that the monk is a 3/4th bab class.And no, you can't take combat style master because crane style is one of those styles where you can't swap out on the fly cause then it will be even more inaccurate since fighting defensively lasts until the start of your next turn.
So with this in mind would a crane style user just ignore flurry entirely?
First don't forget that while Monk is 3/4 bab, a monk changes to full bab during the flurry due to Flurry using Monk Level as BAB.
So a little examples, lets set some baseline. As this looks like a more defensive build, lets roll with a relatively low ability mod for your attack at a +2.
As a result, your single attack at level 1 is:
1d20+2(ability)-2(crane)+0(BAB) or a total of 1d20+0
By comparison, your Flurry attack at level 1 is 2 attacks at:
1d20+2(ability)-2(crane)+1(BAB)-2(Flurry) or a total of 1d20-1
So, if you are trying to hit AC 16 you either have 1 attack with a 25% chance to hit, or 2 attacks with 20% each to hit.
I don't know about you. but I'll take the 20% chance on 2 hits.
The biggest argument for NOT doing Flurry would be if you're trying to hit AC 19. Because then you have a single 10% chance or 2 5% chances. So there you might as well flip a coin. For all other values, you're mathematically better off using Flurry.
Additionally, as others have mentioned. As you level and your BAB falls behind your monk level, and as your Flurry Modifier reduces, you will have a higher chance to hit when you flurry compared to normal attacks.
The crane style abilities aren't always "on," are they? I would think they only apply when activated, and the monk would function as normal otherwise. IRL, a martial artist doesn't go around in crane stance, using crane style attacks and defenses at the expense of moves that would work better in the moment.
Bope, a style feat is only on when you trigger it, which is a free action.
The crane style abilities aren't always "on," are they? I would think they only apply when activated, and the monk would function as normal otherwise. IRL, a martial artist doesn't go around in crane stance, using crane style attacks and defenses at the expense of moves that would work better in the moment.Bope, a style feat is only on when you trigger it, which is a free action.
The penalty reduction is always active, the bonus AC is only active when you entered the stance with a swift action. But that's irrelevant, as Crane Style only does something when you use one of two specific combat options.
The real question is why anyone would want to use cMonk rather than unMonk.
because you don't have access to PF Unc?
The crane style abilities aren't always "on," are they? I would think they only apply when activated, and the monk would function as normal otherwise. IRL, a martial artist doesn't go around in crane stance, using crane style attacks and defenses at the expense of moves that would work better in the moment.Bope, a style feat is only on when you trigger it, which is a free action.The penalty reduction is always active, the bonus AC is only active when you entered the stance with a swift action. But that's irrelevant, as Crane Style only does something when you use one of two specific combat options.
The real question is why anyone would want to use cMonk rather than unMonk.
wrongo, the style penalty doesn't apply unless you're specifically fighting in that style.
wrongo, the style penalty doesn't apply unless you're specifically fighting in that style.
What is a "style penalty"?
In any case, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that say you don't benefit from a style feat (the first one, not the followup ones) unless you are in that style/stance. Of course, everything after the words "While using this style" is only active if that condition is fulfilled, and any followup feat does absolutely nothing unless in the style/stance.
the -2 malus to attack you incur for fighting defensively when using crane style, in exchange for the (I presume cumulative with that from the doge feat) +1 bonus to AC crane style allows... because if the crane style bonus is not cumulative with that from dodge feat (a prereq for it) that style is just plain useless, or an undefensible feat tax for the two other feats it's a prereq for.
"You can choose to fight defensively when (attacking/taking a full-attack action). If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn." CRB pg. 184&187
The penalty is for fighting defensively, not for using Crane Style. Crane Style's first ability, which is always active if you have the feat and fulfill the prerequisites, modifies the usual penalty for fight defensively. Crane Style's second ability grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC when using either the fight defensively option or the total defense action.
Entering Crane Style's stance as a swift action doesn't do anything. Only when you choose the fighting defensively option or to use the total defense action does the feat and it's followups do something.
Crane Style stacks with Dodge and the AC bonus for fighting defensively/using total defense because dodge bonuses always stack.
Actually it is not true that a styles first ability is always active. Unless you are a Master of Many Styles you can only have one style feat active at a time. It also states that you cannot use a style feat before combat begins. Another thing to consider is that the base style feat is also a style feat. It acts as its own prerequisite.
Actually it is not true that a styles first ability is always active.
Yes, it is - there is no rule text that says otherwise. Seriously, I've had this discussion more than one, and not a single rule based argument against it was ever presented. The rules only say that the explicitly the followup feats (those with a style feat as prereq) require the stance, they make no mention of the style feat itself.
Unless you are a Master of Many Styles you can only have one style feat active at a time.
True, but we're not trying that. "Active" means that you've entered the stance, when you simply don't do that, there's no conflict.
It also states that you cannot use a style feat before combat begins.
Again, true, but we're not trying that.
It acts as its own prerequisite.
No such thing. Crane Style's prerequisites are "Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st." You couldn't select the feat if it were it's own prereq...