Magus with a gun or a crossbow?

[Tolarean]

So im getting into a game which for fun reasons we decided would be an all dwarf party. What more, the DM told us that dwarves in his setting have guns, which made me think of gun users because those are fun, but I dont really want to be just a dude with a rifle.

Then I remembered my favourite class, the Magus has the Eldritch Archer archetype which actually can use any ranged weapon, not just bow... and it got me thinking about guns; but I quickly realized that if I wanted to use a musket, I would always be reloading on move, which is kinda bad. On the other hand I thought about going for crossbows and that also seemed rather dwarfy, but on the flip side, crossbows need a tonne of feats to start actually working proper.

I certainly dont want to use a bow though and I cant decide how to do this.

One of my ideas was going Musket Master gunslinger til lvl 3 to get the free action reload with muskets and then switching to Magus full time, but thats losing out on 3 levels of magus and that doesnt sound too good.

Another issue is that while we do start at lvl 5, as a dwarf I dont exactly have an amazing dex (my rolls were rather eh; I got a nice above average but my highest was a 16.), but with a dwarven sub-race present, I can get my INT to 20 base.

Is there a way to build this that actually works, be it crossbows or guns?
I dont want to hyper optimalize but I certainly dont want to be useless.

[Dasrak]

For using a crossbow, you just need the Crossbow Mastery feat. It's usually not a good idea for a Magus since Eldritch Archer is already feat starved, but if you can somehow work in Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery into your build it works.

Firearms work very well with the Eldritch Archer. The general approach is a 1-level dip in Siege Gunner Gunslinger or Spellslinger Wizard. Three levels for Musket Master hurts your spellcasting and Magus class features way too much; at that point you're better off forgetting about Magus altogether and just going for Wizard and Eldritch Knight so your spellcasting actually catches up faster (if you can get access to the Trench Fighter archetype that's even better; Trench Fighter 3 / Spellslinger 5 / Eldritch Knight is a stellar build)

Dwarf is indeed a problem; you really want a racial Dex bonus, and Wis and Con just aren't doing much for you. If your point buy is high it should still be doable (you only need 13 Int, so you can just pour all your points into Dex) but if not that could be a problem.

Aside from that, standard gun-using build advice applies; get point blank shot, precise shot, rapid reload, rapid shot, and deadly aim.

[Dwarftr]

Well...... a magus cant use a gun without a dip..... so i dont know how you can get around this. 1 suggestion i have if you take only 1 lvl dip is the Dragoon pistol and musket. They have a 3 shot capacity, so thats 3 shots before a reload. Its a full round reload, but its a clip so its full round reload for 3 more shots.

I also would suggest two other classes...

#1. Alchemist with the gun chemist archetype.
#2. Wizard with the spellslinger archetype.

PFS Legal Gun Chemist
Source People of the Wastes pg. 11
Simple alchemists may dabble in explosives, but for the rare gun chemist, a firearm’s barrel is his crucible.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Gun chemists are proficient with all simple weapons, firearms, and light armor.

This replaces the gun chemist’s weapon and armor proficiencies.

Alchemical Ordnance (Su): A gun chemist is adept at using his know-how to infuse his ammunition with volatile chemicals and his own magical reserves. When loading a firearm, he can infuse the ammunition as a free action. The compounds are unstable, and if not fired within a number of rounds equal to the gun chemist’s Intelligence modifier (though no sooner than the end of his next turn), the alchemical ordnance becomes inert and loses its additional effects; he can still fire the firearm as normal. Each day, the gun chemist can infuse a number of pieces of alchemical ordnance equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier, and he can fire no more than one piece per round.

Alchemical ordnance deals damage as normal, plus an amount of fire damage equal to 1d6 + the gun chemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of the gun chemist’s alchemical ordnance increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered class level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). The explosive nature of alchemical ordnance causes the attack— both the firearm’s base damage and the alchemical ordnance’s additional damage—to deal full damage to swarms of any size. If the gun chemist uses alchemical ordnance to make a scattering shot with a weapon with the scatter quality, each creature in the area instead takes additional fire damage equal to the alchemical ordnance’s minimum damage (so if the alchemical ordnance would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage normally, it deals only 6 points of fire damage with a scattering shot).

The gun chemist’s alchemical ordnance functions safely only in weapons he wields. If anyone but a gun chemist attempts to fire a firearm loaded with alchemical ordnance that is not yet inert, the firearm’s misfire value increases by 4. If the firearm would explode as the result of such a misfire, the explosion deals additional fire damage equal to that of the alchemical ordnance.

Alchemical ordnance is treated like an alchemist’s bomb for the purpose of discoveries, though such discoveries ignore any effects associated with a bomb’s splash damage or radius unless the gun chemist also applies the exploding bullet discovery. A scattering shot modified by a discovery applies additional effects as though affected creatures were caught in the splash damage of a bomb rather than subject to a direct hit. The DCs of saving throws associated with alchemical ordnance are equal to 10 + half the gun chemist’s alchemist level + the gun chemist’s Intelligence modifier.

This replaces bombs.

Gunsmith: A gun chemist gains a battered gun identical to the one gained by a 1st level gunslinger, as well as the Gunsmithing feat (including the ability to restore his battered gun as if he were a gunslinger). As a standard action, the gun chemist can expend one use of his alchemical ordnance to remove the broken condition from a single firearm he is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained from a misfire.

This replaces Brew Potion and Throw Anything.

Discoveries: A gun chemist selects alchemist discoveries as normal. He can also select from the discoveries below, which are unique to the gun chemist. Discoveries marked with an asterisk (*) do not stack, including with other alchemist discoveries marked by an asterisk that modify bombs. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual alchemical ordnance.

Chemical Stability: When firing an alchemical ordnance, the gun chemist reduces the misfire value of the firearm by 1 (minimum 0) and ignores any increased misfire value from using an alchemical cartridge.

Exploding Bullet*: The gun chemist’s alchemical ordnance splashes adjacent targets as though it were a splash weapon, dealing the alchemical ordnance’s minimum additional damage to other creatures caught in the splash (Reflex half). A gun chemist must be at least 4th level before selecting this discovery.

Fast Ordnance: A gun chemist with this discovery can fire more than one piece of alchemical ordnance as part of a full attack. A gun chemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.

Cartridge Savant (Ex): At 2nd level, a gun chemist can make optimal and highly efficient use of alchemical cartridges, such as flare cartridges. If the gun chemist fires such an alchemical cartridge and it allows a saving throw to negate or reduce the cartridge’s effect, the saving throw’s DC increases by 1 (to a maximum DC of 22). The DC increases by an additional 1 at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter (to a maximum of 7 higher at 20th level). When a gun chemist fires an alchemical cartridge that deals a type of damage in place of a firearm’s normal damage (such as a dragon’s breath cartridge), he can increase the damage dealt by an amount equal to his Intelligence modifier.

This replaces poison resistance.

Repeat Fire (Ex): At 6th level, a gun chemist gains Rapid Reload as a bonus feat and must select a type of firearm. If he already has this feat, he can instead gain one combat feat for which he qualifies.

This replaces swift poisoning.

Spellslinger
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 1
While few contest the seductive allure of commanding arcane and occult powers, there are those wizards who become obsessed with the natural mysteries of black powder. Combining this emerging technology with their considerable arcane skills, they transform firearms into a powerful focus.

Arcane Gun (Su): The spellslinger gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one or two of his firearms can be arcane guns. Arcane guns are normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger’s hands, they both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic. At 1st level, the spellslinger decides whether he wants to have one or two arcane guns at a time. If the spellslinger chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a ×3 critical hit multiplier.

A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the spell’s attack rolls or to the spell’s saving throw DCs. Yet there are dangers inherent to this method. If any of the spells’ attack rolls result in a natural 1 (a misfire), or a natural 20 is rolled on any saving throw made against the spell by a target (an overload), the arcane gun gains the broken condition. If the arcane gun already has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the spell has the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The blast is centered on a single intersection within the spellslinger’s space (spellslinger’s choice) and deals 1d6 points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage per level of the spell cast. Any creature within the blast other than the spellslinger can make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage. The Reflex save DC is calculated using the spell level of the spell being sacrificed.

A spellslinger can attune his arcane guns at the start of each day. That attunement lasts until the spellslinger attunes to a new gun, even if a formally attuned gun is destroyed. This ability replaces arcane bond.

Gunsmith: The spellslinger gains the Gunsmithing feat and a battered gun that is identical to the gun a gunslinger gains at first level. If the spellslinger chooses the ability to attune two arcane guns, he still only starts out with one gun. Like a gunslinger, a spellslinger can use the Gunsmithing feat to restore his battered gun. This ability replaces scribe scroll.

Mage Bullets (Su): A spellslinger is adept at transferring spell energy into his arcane gun attacks. As a swift action, he can sacrifice a spell and transform that energy into a weapon bonus equal to the level of the spell sacrificed on a single barrel of his firearm. With that weapon bonus the spellslinger can apply any of the following to his arcane bond: enhancement bonuses (up to +5) and dancing, defending, distance, flaming, flaming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, merciful, seeking, shock, shocking burst, spell storing, thundering, vicious, and wounding. An arcane gun gains no benefit from having two of the same weapon special abilities on the same barrel. The effect of the mage bullets ability lasts for a number of minutes equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, or until this ability is used again to assign the barrel different enhancements. This ability replaces cantrips, but the spellslinger gains the detect magic and read magic cantrips and places them in his spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.

School of the Gun: The rigor and care required by arcane guns is so great that a spellslinger forsakes four schools of magic. These opposition schools are chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed later. A spellslinger who prepares a spell from his opposition school must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. In addition, the spellslinger takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite. This ability replaces arcane school.

[Dasrak]

Dwarftr wrote:

Well...... a magus cant use a gun without a dip.....

Well, you can actually, it's just stupidly feat intensive. If you can somehow afford all of exotic weapon proficiency, amateur gunslinger, gunsmithing, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid reload, rapid shot, and deadly aim then it will work. However, that's 8 feats so it won't come online until 11th level, so it's not the kind of build you can work into organically and you'll usually need to retrain into it.

[Alphavoltario]

Note with the gun you will be going against touch within your first ranged increment, so Dex isn't a 'necessity' especially if you're not going to lvl 5 Gunslinger for Dex to damage.

Guns and crossbows are both fairly feat intensive (if you're going for multiple shots per round) Musket Master is giving you a reload feat for free which is more than you can get if not playing a human; other 'crossbow' classes don't give you much for free feats for crossbows unless you're a fighter.

Alchemical Cartridges lessen reloading by another 1 step making your gun reloading a free action at the cost of +1 or 2 to misfire chance.

I'm assuming you don't want to lose out on higher level spells for the Magus as by 5th with only 2 Magus levels will only have a few 1st level casts (so yeah I would crank that Int for extra spells). If you need to boost caster level ask about if traits are being used (Magical Knack: Magus) will raise CL by 2, up to your HD. Other than these things... there's nothing to help with that.

Benefit of 3 levels of Gunslinger will be +1 Dodge to AC, +2 bonus to Initiative, and melee slapping people with your gun.

Also your saves will be fairly decent.

FCB's are not entirely relevant. Dwarves get some nice abilities though (I'm looking at your Darkvision, technically also Stonecunning (feels like it's the poor man's <Rouge Talent: Trap Spotter>)).

Feat wise if you're going for 'mowing down the front line' you're going to need all your normal ranged feats (<Point-Blank Shot>,<Precise Shot>,<Rapid Shot>), which will take up all of your feats going to level 5.

Hell if you're going to go for the 'one shot one kill' type build, might as well go for a level dip of the Alchemist AT <Gun Chemist> and throw some minor fire bomb damage in with your Spell shot. If you can only make one shot, better make it count; right?

[Alphavoltario]

Dwarftr wrote:

Gun Chemist

...Well someone beat me to that suggestion...

[Tolarean]

Thanks for the ideas so far.

Honestly Alchemist was my first idea when I saw that custom dwarven sub-race our DM has, which instead of the regular +CON+WIS -CHA gives a solid +4 INT for a -3 to STR;

The stat line I was looking at with all the adjustments was:
STR 9
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 20
WIS 14
CHA 6

The guns hitting touch AC was one of the things that made me want to go for them actually, since with just a +3 dex that crossbow would struggle. That and to use guns I would really just need Rapid Reload instead of outright needing crossbow mastery.

My original idea was an Alch though but not a gun chemist but a Grenadier who used crossbows (with a splash of Focused Shot) and just shot explosives on people all day erry day but that was when I thought about what other class could do that and well, here we are.

From what I thought is that with just Rapid Reload and Alch.Cartridges you reload muskets as a move action, hence why I wanted to take 3 levels in Musket Master to get the reload as a free action, which would let me actually properly use Spell Combat.

The dragoon musket is a very nice catch though, did not think of that and it does sound pretty nice...

[Selvaxri]

Soul Forger Magus could Spellstrike with a gun, if you also take gunsmithing feat or sneak it in though a class feature.

[Alphavoltario]

Selvaxri wrote:

Soul Forger Magus could Spellstrike with a gun, if you also take gunsmithing feat or sneak it in though a class feature.

Doesn't give Ranged Spellstrike which a magus needs for spell striking with ranged weapons (It doesn't bypass the 'melee weapon' part of spellstrike); also it tanks your casting... you want more spells not less...

[thistledown]

My ranged magus was a Myrmidon Magus as Eldritch Archer hadn't been written yet. The rules were very questionable on what he did.

Get a dragon pistol and use spellstrike through it. And now your one spell hits everyone in a 15' cone. Because it's still one piece of ammo that happens to hit all of them.

The character is retired now, and in practice it almost never worked due to spacing and targets. But it was fun to try.

[Meirril]

If you are worried about the action economy of an Eldritch Archer, then make sure you choose a gun that you won't need to reload.

You won't get an iterative attack until you hit 8th level. By then you should be able to afford a +1 Shadowshooting firearm. So Rapid Reload is only going to be a thing for you until 8th level where you can retrain it away. The same for Gunsmithing if you bother taking it. I'd actually recommend seeing if you can get someone else to take it instead and bug them for ammo.

The 2 guns that stand out are Cylinder Riffle (8 shots, reload is 2 full round actions), and Dragoon Riffle (3 shots, reloads all 3 as a full round action). Cylinder Riffle reloads 8 shots in 1 full round if you take Rapid Reload. If you take Rapid Fire its probably your best option. Dragoon Riffle can be reloaded as a standard action if you take Rapid Reload, which I don't think it really worth the extra feat. The dragoon does slightly more damage, and has a better range. The cylinder riffle is better for sustained fire but my recommendation would be the Dragoon.

If you can select an advanced riffle to begin with, choose the pepperbox riffle. You starting bonded object is free after all.

While its tempting to take a 1 level dip into Spellslinger Wizard I think its more powerful to just start Magus and stick with it. High int is needed, as so is dex. Don't neglect strength because magus does use light armor and most 2 handed firearms are 12-20 lbs. Stat wise I'd say skip the specialized int dwarf, the strength mod is just too hard to deal with. Try for at least a 14 int and dex, and 10 is fine for strength.

[Dave Justus]

My suggestion would be to go with a long bow as far as mechanics, but see if your GM will let you reflavor it.

Maybe it is a pump action spring loaded bolt thrower. Or an 'alchemical crossbow' or whatever makes it more 'dwarfy' for the setting. Cost, damage, range, feats would be identical as if were a long bow, how it is described would be different.

I think most GMs wouldn't have a problem with that.

[Meirril]

Dave Justus wrote:

My suggestion would be to go with a long bow as far as mechanics, but see if your GM will let you reflavor it.

Maybe it is a pump action spring loaded bolt thrower. Or an 'alchemical crossbow' or whatever makes it more 'dwarfy' for the setting. Cost, damage, range, feats would be identical as if were a long bow, how it is described would be different.

I think most GMs wouldn't have a problem with that.

Why a longbow? So you can add strength to damage? Or so you can pump more feats into supporting it? A firearm is a strong choice because it hits touch AC at close range and you don't need a lot of feats to make it effective. Longbow is more of a dedicated choice that seems better suited to classes that get more feats and better self buffs. Magus tends to be more blaster-ish.

[Dave Justus]

Meirril wrote:

Why a longbow?

Because that is how most eldritch archers build and it is generally the most effective. It takes a lot of feats to get a lot of attacks, but that is even more true with the alternatives. And yes, STR to damage is nice.

Meirril wrote:

A firearm is a strong choice because it hits touch AC at close range and you don't need a lot of feats to make it effective.

I don't see how you can figure that a firearm needs less feats than a longbow. At second level a Eldritch archer can with spell-combat and spell-strike two attacks with the bow per turn without any feats at all.

Meirril wrote:

Longbow is more of a dedicated choice that seems better suited to classes that get more feats and better self buffs. Magus tends to be more blaster-ish.

Eldrith Archer is a dedicated ranged attacker. It is right there in the name. And the Magus gets a ton of self buffs, so I don't understand that either.

[Darklone]

I second the gun chemist or the steel hound investigator. Ranged studied combat is only short distance though... but you can do a lot of other fun things and youll be a strong switch hitter.

One level dip Gunslinger (Bolt Ace) will get you ranged touch attacks with a heavy Xbow... you wont have a lot of grit though if you go for high INT. On the other hand, a Xbow has better crit Chance than firearms.

I've used some Bolt Ace alchemists with explosive missile.... my players hate them!

[Dasrak]

Dave Justus wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Why a longbow?

Because that is how most eldritch archers build and it is generally the most effective. It takes a lot of feats to get a lot of attacks, but that is even more true with the alternatives. And yes, STR to damage is nice.

Longbows are indeed a superb selection for the Eldritch Archer, but firearms are also a very strong choice. The Eldritch Archer has a lot riding on its ranged spellstrikes since it cannot hold the charge like a melee Magus can on a miss. Hitting touch AC makes the delivery of your ranged spellstrike much more reliable, and compensates for the downsides of using firearms.

Darklone wrote:

I second the gun chemist or the steel hound investigator.

Gun Chemist could definitely be useful, but I'm not seeing the attraction of Steel Hound. Studied Strike is too high level so you're never going to get it.

[Tolarean]

I did want to go guns because of the visuals and dwarfyness, then thought that crossbows could work too but well. Hm. I suppose fluffing up a longbow could also work in theory, perhaps. Some very mechanical recurve bow...

If I just go for regular dwarf without moving the stats around...
STR 11
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 16
CHA 4
Yeah the Cha is dangerously low but welp. In theory opens up interesting roleplay options.

Yeah im worried the accuracy would be a proble, as its a 3/4BAB class and id only have +3dex (and while we start at lvl5, the DM explicitly said we dont start with magic items at all) so im not sure a dex belt will come soon at all.

Though going with a refluffed longbow would let me snatch 3 levels of Arcane Archer potentially and all the fun archery feats. Tho if I really wanted to go longbow the zen archer would just glare at me...

On the topic of crits, theres one thing im unsure about, can the Eldritch Archer ranged spellstrike even crit? Like with the spell as the melee one can, I mean. In that case the crossbow would certainly be more interesting.

[Alphavoltario]

If you want to be a decent crossbowman elves are a good way of doing in (little better than Humans) with the <Crossbow Training>

Crossbow Training wrote:

An elf with this trait can reload a light crossbow as a free action and a heavy crossbow as a move action, provided that she is proficient with the weapon. If she selects the Rapid Reload feat for a heavy crossbow, she can reload the weapon as a free action. This racial trait replaces weapon familiarity. Source PZO90124

It would open up your ability to play a full magus more as you would get your feats (without needing <Crossbow Mastery>) and you could decide between a spell shot or a full round rain of hell with bolts.

Feats-
1st: PBS
3rd: Precise Shot
4th bonus: Rapid Reload [Heavy Crossbow]
5th: Rapid Shot

Stats might look like so:
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 18 {+1 4th lvl = 19}
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

But I believe you're set on this subrace dwarf?

Edit: Also grabbing Familiar magus arcana, you can grab a mauler familiar to protect you in melee.

[Tolarean]

Im not really set on the subrace that gives it INT, I just thought it would be nice for a magus. In theory I could of played a warpriest or something... but well, magus is rather nice imo.
Im just set on playing a dwarf in general, due to it being a dwarven campaign.

And that is a very interesting trait, didnt know about that one!

[Darklone]

Houseruling that trait for a dwarf looks very logical from a Fantasy POV. Ask your DM. That fixes many of your feat problems and you can go singleclass Magus.

Edit: One Level Bolt Ace is not worth it with WIS 12 for emergency case touch attack(s).