Does ACPenalty Skew the Skill System?

[Previloc]

The "Adjusting the Chance for Success" descriptions of challenge levels in the 1.3 update is significantly lacking in two respects:
1) It ignores Armor Check Penalty - Drop ACP
2) Table 10-2's math doesn't reflect the words - Try New Math

Is any other table filled with penalties as 6-3(Armor)? Remove ACP, and everything would still work fine. Make all armor Clumsy - and allow higher quality (and materials) to increase the cap. Then, a single 10-2 will work for all skills. ACP would make a great ANP (armor non-proficiency penalty), though -4 AC is pretty good by itself.

Detail:

The thing that really suffers the most from protective armor is Perception. You can't dance as well, but I think DexModCap covers that for a fantasy game.

Not only does PFPT armor limit the utility of your Dexterity (particularly as a character levels), but it offers what would otherwise be catastrophic spell effects reducing movement and skill for the very characters that rely on movement and physical skill. While I applaud negating ACP for 'attack' effects, it's a complication that means you have to treat Attack Athletics as a separate skill entry, and it doesn't work consistently.

The only case in which ACP makes sense is for Nonproficient characters.

Clumsy is an excellent 'payment' idea to encourage role-based choice, and I'd like to see it expanded to other options (through other stats - spells, for example). In any case, modifying DexModCap with quality and materials brings some parity to the benefits reaped with Weapons, if we're not allowed to increase AC.

Shield ACP is particularly disappointing, since you pay your entire bonus for being a Master Athelete (+1) just to carry it, while the Barbarian with a 6' sword, 6' bow, Longspear, and 10' ladder pays nothing. The Bard with the bagpipes - he's fine, as is the loon with the Gong and his friend with Cymbals. Unless skill penalties are common, I think they should be dropped. Decrease DexModCap by 1 if you have to, but the rules have already eliminated the Shield's limited usefulness unless you pay 1/3 of your time.

Armored characters pay Movement, Bulk, Physical Checks, Dex, and Money for the AC they need to perform thier primary function - to stay in combat to protect others. With more Clumsy, Getting rid of ACP is okay - it's Fantasy.

Realism Humor:

As demonstrated in You-Tube videos, ancient armor isn't as debilitating as load - did you see the plate-armored guy running through the obstacle course that the modern infantryman struggled through? Ever see an Olympic athlete do their thing with a pack on (excluding the weights ancient Greeks used to increase jump distances)? Weapons were a problem though - try something carrying a ladder. Expensive ancient armor focused brilliantly on protection and weight distribution. If you beef up the Bulk system with CLUMSY, HAMPERED, and worsening DexModCap effects (say, at 50% cap, 100% cap, 150% cap, 200% cap), and you'll approach some realism. Armor should have a much smaller impact than load capacity.

By the way, 5+Str and 10+Str limits are…suboptimal. A Strength 10 goblin carrying 9 Bulk is less penalized than a Strength 18 human in just Splint Mail (Bulk 3)?

Make if Fair Humor:

The key equipment/tools for each class should come with skill penalties. Channel Negative Energy or choose Evil/Necromantic spells? -5 Diplomacy. Channel Positive Energy or Heal Spells? -5 Intimidate? (reversed for Negative Plane creatures). Pick more non-Divination spells? -1 to Arcane/Religion/… cumulative per such spell as you stop focusing on learning. Carry Thieves Tools, agile weapons, or a cloak? -4 to Stealth - because they're watchin' ya. Carry an Instrument or not wear armor? Nobody will trust you, and you're targeted first (pesky spellcasters ruin everything). Barbarian? Oh easy - no magic items (you destroy the sorcerous abominations). Some of these are ridiculous in an attempt to use humor, illustrating the point that the very characters that need to be good at Athletics (and Acrobatics) are penalized by trying to do their job. Clumsy and DexModCap, in my opinion, are better, though I'd look ;) for an IntModCap for choosing to cast damaging spells, a WisModCap for 'detect' spells, and ChaModCap for enchantments...

Table 10-2 Math could be fixed easily, by focusing on the words. Decide what 'significant' means. If it means +3 (15%), okay, Easy to Medium to Hard, etc. should start at +3 differences - because +1 (5%) is not what anyone thinks differentiates "most common in the game...attempt frequently" from "requiring exceptional effort and luck...don't encounter that often". Then, the +3 can be expanded at higher levels (I suggest +5 at 20th). I sent in a version of this, that also made Assurance a useful feat (lower Medium difficulty DCs).

Sample Table:

Level Easy Med Hard Inc Ult
0 5 8 11 14 17
1 6 9 12 15 18
2 7 10 13 16 19
3 8 11 15 18 21
4 9 12 16 19 22
5 10 14 18 21 24
6 11 15 19 23 26
7 12 16 20 24 27
8 13 17 21 25 29
9 14 18 22 26 30
10 16 20 24 28 32
11 17 21 25 29 33
12 18 22 26 30 34
13 19 23 28 32 36
14 20 24 29 33 37
15 21 26 31 35 39
16 22 27 32 37 41
17 23 28 33 38 42
18 24 29 34 39 44
19 25 30 35 40 45
20 27 32 37 42 47
21 29 34 39 44 49
22 31 36 41 46 51
23 33 38 43 48 53

[Bardarok]

ACP's are pretty brutal. A character in expert quality full-plate and a unarmored character suffering from stage 3 hemlock poisoning (a lvl 17 poison) have the same penalty to athletics checks.

[Claxon]

There's also the problem that even if you start with only a 12 dex, which is doable on pretty much any character, you can end up with 18. Meaning you have a +4 modifier, pushing you firmly from "I should wear full plate" to "Lol, full plate is garbage. Why bother with heavy armor when I can wear medium and get the same AC values". As you level up the system reinforces that you should wear progressively less armor because they've set up the system that armor bonus + dex = 7.

Wearing heavier armor doesn't have a benefit as you level up. Everyone should be wearing scale mail or chain shirt by the end of their careers. Which is pretty lame. Higher tiers of armor should give you more than what they currently do. If we're going to have ACP and speed penalties, and traits like clumsy and noisy there should be some benefits.

Currently, heavy armor is like wearing a penalty for not being a dex based character.

But heck, every martial character I've built has started with at least 12 dex, and really it's better to not invest in con at level 1 and instead invest in dex. So a melee character can invest in str and dex at creation and worry about con afterwards.

[thorin001]

Claxon wrote:

There's also the problem that even if you start with only a 12 dex, which is doable on pretty much any character, you can end up with 18. Meaning you have a +4 modifier, pushing you firmly from "I should wear full plate" to "Lol, full plate is garbage. Why bother with heavy armor when I can wear medium and get the same AC values". As you level up the system reinforces that you should wear progressively less armor because they've set up the system that armor bonus + dex = 7.

Wearing heavier armor doesn't have a benefit as you level up. Everyone should be wearing scale mail or chain shirt by the end of their careers. Which is pretty lame. Higher tiers of armor should give you more than what they currently do. If we're going to have ACP and speed penalties, and traits like clumsy and noisy there should be some benefits.

Currently, heavy armor is like wearing a penalty for not being a dex based character.

But heck, every martial character I've built has started with at least 12 dex, and really it's better to not invest in con at level 1 and instead invest in dex. So a melee character can invest in str and dex at creation and worry about con afterwards.

Except for fighters and paladins who gain extra proficiency in heavy armor.

[thorin001]

It is not just the ACP that causes a problem. There is also the max dex issue of armor with the clumsy trait. A character wearing splint not only has a -3 to str and dex based skills, he also has a maximum dex of 14 for calculating those skills.

[DM_Blake]

That's a funny notion.

Hey, Bob, should we gank that guy over there?
No way Bill. He's wearing a chain shirt! He must be really high level.
Yeah, you're right. Let's go look for some schmuck in full plate. You know he's gotta be a low-level noob AND he's gonna be easy to catch and kill with all those extra penalties...

[Claxon]

thorin001 wrote:

Except for fighters and paladins who gain extra proficiency in heavy armor.

Yeah, but it's not really worth it for fighters. At 11th level you go from trained to expert in heavy armor, a bonus of +1. You still have to deal with 10ft speed penalties, high ACP, and the clmusy trait on 2 of the 3 heavy armor options. Or have 1 point less AC and sport chain mail for increased speed, avoiding the clumsy trait, and having less ACP.

The level 17 upgrade basically just makes you as good in heavy armor, as you would have been in medium armor, but +1 AC more. Except you still have higher ACP and the clumsy trait potentially.

Higher tiers of armor should give more than +1 AC and have appropriate drawbacks. Drawbacks which classes which focus on armor can reduce/negate.

If the fighter abilities progressed all armor types at the proficiency increase rate, and reduced ACP, and reduced speed penalties then I would be satisfied. But currently it's just kind of a half-assed bonus.

[Bardarok]

Clumsy trait is just a restatement of the fact that you should never wear armor with a max dex lower than your dex mod, it might be better if every armor should be clumsy to help reinforce that it is a trap option. Raising all dex caps by one would help, at least it would make unarmored and armored have an equal cap.

[thorin001]

Claxon wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Except for fighters and paladins who gain extra proficiency in heavy armor.

Yeah, but it's not really worth it for fighters. At 11th level you go from trained to expert in heavy armor, a bonus of +1. You still have to deal with 10ft speed penalties, high ACP, and the clmusy trait on 2 of the 3 heavy armor options. Or have 1 point less AC and sport chain mail for increased speed, avoiding the clumsy trait, and having less ACP.

The level 17 upgrade basically just makes you as good in heavy armor, as you would have been in medium armor, but +1 AC more. Except you still have higher ACP and the clumsy trait potentially.

Higher tiers of armor should give more than +1 AC and have appropriate drawbacks. Drawbacks which classes which focus on armor can reduce/negate.

If the fighter abilities progressed all armor types at the proficiency increase rate, and reduced ACP, and reduced speed penalties then I would be satisfied. But currently it's just kind of a half-assed bonus.

Remember, expert armor reduces your ACP by 1, master by 2, and legendary by 3. So a legendary breastplate or half plate only has an ACP of 1.

[Claxon]

Right, but that's a quality of the armor itself.

Which further reinforces why heavy armor is bad.

If you use legendary hide armor you can have no speed penalty, and no ACP and no negative traits. And for a fighter, the difference between that and the best heavy armor would be only 1 point of AC for a speed penalty, possibly a negative trait, and possibly still an ACP.