Monastic Legacy - Design flaw or intent?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I'll make it short and sweet. Monastic Legacy (for those that don't know) counts half your non-monk levels towards unarmed monk damage. It's a fantastic feat for anybody that likes to use unarmed attacks and multi-class. Requirements: Unarmed Strike, Still Mind. There's the problem. Still Mind is replaced by 80% of the archetypes. That makes this feat invalid for most of the archetypes. I'm sure this was originally implemented to make sure somebody didn't dip 1 level into monk and end up with absurd monk damage. That's fair. However, it's a shame because some archetypes would multi-class so well. For example, Scaled Fist uses charisma in place of Wis for all of its Wis based class calculations. That would be huge for somebody who wanted to multiclass into a sorcerer, bloodrager, Summoner, Eldrich based Magus, ect. Without that feat, it's just not an attractive option. You're pigeon-holed into no archetype/wisdom casters. That makes me sad.

So my question to you guys -

Was this intentional, or perhaps oversight? Could we change it to something like -

Requirements: Improved Unarmed Strike, Level 3 Monk


I dont see the design flaw. There are many archetypes that trade away abilities that would benefit from feats, but that is a trade off for choosing those archetypes.

It's not flawed at all, it's designed to keep vanilla class interesting and supported.


I'm fairly sure you are wrong as to the intent. In the book this feat was published in, Ultimate Combat, there are 7 monk archetypes. 2 of them replace still mind. Since this was when archetypes were introduced, it seems unlikely that it was set up to punish people who take archetypes.

It seems perfectly fine to me the way it is.

(That it doesn't help SAD Charisma to everything builds is a bonus though)


I see. So, since we're playing strictly by wording law. I could take 3 levels of Monk, 10 levels of Esoteric Magus, pick up Monastic Legacy at some point and have the unarmed damage of an 18th level monk at level 13? Or maybe sacred fist? Or any other non-monk class that uses the unarmed monk table damage and stacks with monk?

The feat should be this -

Count half your non-monk levels as monk levels for unarmed strike damage. Classes that use unarmed damage that stacks with monk unarmed damage do not benefit from this feat.

Requirements: Unarmed Damage 1d8(1d6 for small)

Sure it requires a 4 dip instead of 3, but honestly that's probably more balanced anyways. That would fix archetypes from multiclassing and not losing out on damage and it would fix this feat mixed with non-monk unarmed based archetypes.


Obviously any levels that are treated as monk levels should not be counted as levels in a class other than monk.

You are absolutely correct that the particular wording feat was not future-proofed in that regard, as only the monk had increasing unarmed strike damage at the time.

I don't know that it has been specifically addressed anywhere, but if it were I (and I suspect you as well) am 100% certain that it would be resolved in this way.

This doesn't have anything to do with the still mind class feature requirement though.

I don't disagree that a Monk level 3 rather than 'still mind' would be balanced well enough. It wouldn't break anything if you houseruled it that way. Where I disagree with you is that that change is necessary or particularly desirable for everyone. There are lot of places where a prerequisite would be just as balanced if it was X instead of Y, but just because they could be that way doesn't mean they need to be changed to be that way.


Justin Miller 716 wrote:
I could take 3 levels of Monk, 10 levels of Esoteric Magus, pick up Monastic Legacy at some point and have the unarmed damage of an 18th level monk at level 13?

Oh no, what a nightmare, the character does two damage more per attack than normal, that's way beyond what a feat is allowed to grant! Oh, wait.

Seriously, people are way overvaluing weapon dice. With or without Monastic Legacy, spending two more levels away from your main class just to get a few points of bonus damage to attacks is almost never worth it, especially not on a caster class.
For a feat improving unarmed strikes, +2 damage is actually pretty weak. Even if the prereq. were be "Monk level 1", you shouldn't pick the feat.

On a related note, if you're using cMonk as a base, you're doing something wrong anyway.


Derklord wrote:
Seriously, people are way overvaluing weapon dice.

Ummm...no one has even addressed that aspect. Whether it is all that valuable, powerful or desirable for any particular build is a totally different issue.

Just because something wouldn't be overpowered, doesn't mean it works.

The Exchange

You know what else replaces still mind? Vows. Seriously, vowing to always tell the truth cuts you off from a bunch of archetypes, a few feats (like this one), and the Champion of Iori prestige class.

To me, these items don’t look like oversight, it looks like futureproofing for things that were never implemented. By saying “still mind” instead of “Monk level 3” the designers left the door open for future classes or non-monk archetypes to possibly get these choices. It turns out that no such archetypes were ever printed.


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You can vow all you like. You just don't get a perk for it unless you also give up still mind. : )


Monk is already the most dipplable class in the game (Alternate Stat to AC for defenses, permanent un-disarmable weapons, three free feats, and fricking Flurry of Blows that outdoes most character's normal melee routine until 6th leve) and Scaled Fist is THE most dippable archetype next to a level of Swashbuckler.

Having 12 levels of Monk fist damage isn't too scary at level 20, but with a Monk's Robe you could be at 17 levels of Monk Fist damage which is pretty rad.

Of course, having these fists could be a downside as you do not get Ki Strike to bypass resistances and you need to dump obscene levels of cash onto getting an Amulet of Mighty Fists powerful enough to cut into DR.

With these considerations in place, A reasonable GM might allow you to select Skill Mind as a Ki power with the "as long as you have 1 ki point" restriction. That would allow you to abandon a Ki Power to take Monastic Legacy and still qualify for other goodies. Still, that is entirely a house rule.


Dave Justus wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Seriously, people are way overvaluing weapon dice.
Ummm...no one has even addressed that aspect.

Come again? The entire thread is based on overvaluing damage dice. Justin thinks that a 13th level character with the damage of an 18th level monk would be imbalanced, and that a Monastic Lagecy feat with just prereq '1st level monk' would result in "absurd monk damage". He also says that the ability to use Monastic Legacy is what makes or breaks the attractiveness of multiclass options.

But the math just doesn't work out. Without stacking (or the robe), Monastic Legacy can only increase the average damage by more than 2 if the character has at least four levels in Monk.

RAW, Esoteric Magus stacks with Monastic Legacy: It doesn't matter what gets treated as whatever Monk stuff, "levels you have in classes other than monk" are literally the only thing that Monastic Legacy asks for, and no matter what, Magus levels are levels in a class other than Monk.

ShroudedInLight wrote:
Having 12 levels of Monk fist damage isn't too scary at level 20, but with a Monk's Robe you could be at 17 levels of Monk Fist damage which is pretty rad.

Your definition of "rad" and my definition of it diverge significantly. With three levels of Monk, and Robe, you need character level nineteen before Monastic Legacy increases your damage by more than 1.5!


Eh, I might be overvaluing the damage but as an unarmed character with Flurry of Blows you are landing at least 5 attacks late game (7 with a Ki point and Haste). Monastic Legacy functions as Weapon Specialization, with even more damage capable if you make use of an Impact Amulet of Many Fists, have a wand of lead blades, and/or get huge with Enlarge Person.

The damage difference is only 4d6 to 4d8, but that is per attack and as a Monk with a functioning Ki Pool you are making a lot of attacks.

If a Fighter can get excited about Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization, I don't see why a multiclass Monk can't get excited about Monastic Legacy.


It's not ideal, but you can take Celestial Obedience(Ghenshau) and take a prestige class that gives you accelerated access to boons. Combined with Monastic Legacy you could pick up the advanced progression without taking any levels in monk.

That being said, I'm not sure how useful it would be since, the earliest you could pull this off is level 16. But combined with monk's robes you would have the unarmed damage of a 13th level monk.


Check out the Ascetic Strike feat.

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