Hollow's Last Hope encounter... is this really CR2?

[Growlly]

I'm a new-ish GM prepping to run Hollow's Last Hope (a level 1 adventure) for some friends, including new players and one player who has never played a tabletop RPG. It's a group of 6 players, so I've been converting it to the Pathfinder monsters and increasing CR by 1 for group size. But there's one CR2 monster that attacks when the PCs disturb a room that has a quest mcguffin in it:

14 AC
31 HP
Hardness 5
Bite +2 (1d8+1)
Improved Grab (Grapple CMB +2 I guess)
Swallow Whole - 1d4 nonlethal/turn, escape with 10 damage, hardness 5.

It does have the morale-ish condition that it will only chase the PCs inside this 120-foot area, but they have no way of knowing that, and I'm sure they're not just going to abandon a swallowed teammate.

My concerns that this could cause a bunch of kills on new Level 1 players are:
- It has hardness 5, so really only power attacks from the 2-handed fighter are going to be able touch it with average damage rolls--everyone else will be praying for max damage. Level 0 and 1 damage spells are useless and I'm sure will get wasted on it.
- If a PC gets swallowed in the first 3 turns, it seems like they're basically screwed. I don't see how a swallowed PC can deal 10 damage against hardness 5 with a light weapon at this level. They have daggers.
- It's pretty early in the adventure, so they're not going to be in a groove in terms of their teamwork and their characters' abilities.

Am I missing something? This is without any enhancements or extra baddies to up the CR for 6 players. Do I need to nerf this?

[doomman47]

Isn't that a boss fight? If it is, it's suppose to be difficult. In addition one handed weapons can be used in a grapple so one can still have 1d8-1d10+str for their attack. Also level 0 spells will hardly worth less you can at will touch attack to widdle away 1 hp at a time it will just take a while to do.

[ShroudedInLight]

It seems ok in my eyes, maybe give the party a few acid flasks in an earlier room so that they have a non-magical method of damaging it (acid should ignore the hardness as its non-magical energy damage).

Anyway, its worth noting that as a party of level 1 characters that the swallow whole is a little hard to use. (Gotta hit their AC, then make a second successful attack roll verses their CMD). Even then, the swallow whole damage is non-lethal and can only hold one person at a time. Non-lethal requires 2x the amount of lethal HP to kill, so if they bite for 5 on a Fighter with 12 HP, the fighter takes 2 (average) non-lethal so it will take 7 additional rounds to kill the Fighter.

Now that is all assuming average damage, and 7 rounds to kill is much better odds than the Fighter would have outside the monster.

[Slim Jim]

AC is 12 while flanked, 8 while slipped or tripped prone, With minimal party planning, a vanilla 1st-level fighter could be hitting it on a 2. A str 16 character two-handing a d10 weapon without Power Attack will average 9.5 damage a hit, or 4.5 getting through. A two-weapon rogue flanking with no attribute bonus to damage will plink in two points average per d6+1d6 sneak-attack. A no-foolin'-around barbarian raging to 22 str with a greatsword and PA is dishing out 2d6+12, or 14 getting past the hardness.

It'll take the PCs maybe five or six rounds to nickel & dime it to death, but it'll give 'em a good scare first when one of them is swallowed and they think their buddy is a goner, --Which is the way it should be in an intro mod.

[fearcypher]

Just as a note, Hardness is not bypassed by energy attacks so acid flasks and the like won't help against it.

[Yqatuba]

DR doesn't apply when swallowed. I assume hardness doesn't either.

[doomman47]

Yqatuba wrote:

DR doesn't apply when swallowed. I assume hardness doesn't either.

Umm this isn't a rule I can find anywere, can you link to were the rules say dr doesn't apply?

[Yqatuba]

That's weird, I just looked it up and you're right.

[Trekkie90909]

Hardness applies while swallowed, and is generally called out in the special ability description of the monster's attacks in the statblock (i.e. Taotieh).

This is not the format used for creatures with DR, but while I also thought DR didn't apply, I can't find a rules source.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Hardness causes energy attacks to deal half damage against an object before subtracting the Hardness amount so essentially CL1 energy damage spells are useless. However there might be some kinds of energy that are effective against some objects (such as fire against a broom or something) so the GM has some leniency here.

However the OP is right; this creature's stat block falls outside the normal parameters of the "typical" CR 2 monster. Under the monster creation guidelines the average HP for a CR 2 monster is 20. This monster has 31 HP. Otherwise though this monster seems to hit close to other benchmarks for a CR 2 monster: 14 AC, bite +2, avg damage on a hit is 5 damage, and so on.

If the PCs rush the creature and just hack away at it, there will likely be a hard-won battle. This is not to say however that it is guaranteed to be a TPK. I don't know that I'd raise the CR higher for the fight. Consider:

A standard tactic at level 1 for toe-to-toe melee fights is for the arcane caster to toss an Enlarge Person spell on a martial type. Said martial type, if they focus on melee, likely has prioritized Str and is carrying a decent melee weapon. So with a 20 pt buy it can be reasonably assumed that, say, a level 1 melee fighter would have an 18-20 starting Str.

Going low end, consider an 18 Str fighter 1, carrying a greataxe (d12 weapon, wielded 2 hd) gets enlarged. Said fighter now has a BAB +1, Str bonus of +5, a Size penalty of -1, for a total of +5 to attack; the fighter hits on a 9 or higher (60% chance of success). Over half their attacks land, and each will deal 3d6 +7, avg 17.5 damage.

At this rate, with the rest of the party doing nothing but watching, the law of averages suggests that in somewhere between 5-6 rounds of melee combat that fighter ends this creature, having suffered, maybe, 12 damage in the process. It is unlikely that this creature will manage to Swallow Whole on said fighter, based on a CMD of 17 while enlarged and if the monster is Small sized it is impossible due to the rules on that ability.

So again that's one fighter 1, no feats factored in, estimating optimized Str and a 2hd weapon, who has an AC of 14, getting one spell cast on them.

Now factor in the rest of the PCs helping. Round 1 the arcane caster drops Enlarge Person, the Divine Caster adds a Bless (+1 to the fighter's attacks) and the skills monkey/backup damage type contributes perhaps 1-2 damage either from a ranged attack or a melee. Alternatively, the skills monkey type might deliver a Condition. If this 4th PC is Dex based (a ranged attacker, Small sized, or a finesse melee type) then throwing a net, even without proficiency, is probably a +0 Ranged Touch attack with likely about a 50% chance of success.

And that's just round 1.

As the other 4-5 rounds pile on the Arcane caster might identify the monster, realize it's Hardness defense, and use battlefield control spells such as Expeditious Excavation, Grease, or Obscuring Mist to enhance the positioning of the fighter and perhaps impose another Condition such as Prone. The Divine caster might use Cure Light Wounds to keep the fighter going; alternatively a tanky Divine caster wielding a 1d8 damage weapon with the Bless spell running might instead give themselves Divine Favor and step into combat. A 3/4 BAB Divine caster in this situation, expecting their PC to be a secondary combatant, may have approximately a 12-13 Str, so said caster might be wading into battle with a weapon +3 (1d8+2) and dealing an added 1.5 damage 50% of the time.

I know I'm making a lot of generalizations, suppositions, and using a lot of PC resources, but this is all based on some standard builds and advice I've seen floating around these boards. Also what I'm describing is a group of PCs just charging in and parking themselves in front of this creature with no tactics.

Consider that getting up on a table, window ledge or other higher ground requires a Climb skill check with a low DC, a Move action, and grants a +1 to attack. Flanking will also likely be achievable granting +2 attacks and opening up the chance for Precision damage unless the creature's type makes it immune. There are a few Conditions, such as Entangled, Fatigued, or Prone, that will further enhance the PCs' chances to hit that are easily deliverable at Level 1.

As far as damage getting through the Hardness it will be a long, grinding fight but this is why Martial melee types exist right? This is a CR 2 fight; more challenging than an "average" CR 1 but not necessarily TPK material. It does however require some skill, patience and perhaps superior tactics on the part of the players.

[ShroudedInLight]

fearcypher wrote:

Just as a note, Hardness is not bypassed by energy attacks so acid flasks and the like won't help against it.

Damn, sorry for the misinformation. It was late and I forgot hardness interacted weirdly with elemental damage.

Also, you could run this fight like the Hag fight in Darkest Dungeon where the creature spits out anyone who hits 0 or below HP to swallow someone else. That way your party could heal the injured teammate who had just been digested.

[Firebug]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Hardness causes energy attacks to deal half damage against an object before subtracting the Hardness amount so essentially CL1 energy damage spells are useless. However there might be some kinds of energy that are effective against some objects (such as fire against a broom or something) so the GM has some leniency here.

Close. This is a creature not an object, so it takes normal damage from energy attacks (reduced by hardness). Its not divided by 2 first, that is only for (inanimate) objects. This came up a bunch of times a couple years ago when Robots were a theme for PFS.

Another point, this looks to have been written with the D&D ruleset not Pathfinder (since it was written in 2007 and lists spot, listen, etc.).
From the way the module calls out the creature's hardness it implies that it is lower than it should be, since presumably the cauldron is made of metal. In fact, in D&D 3.5 the rules are a little more loose and it is officially a CR 2. It automatically gets the hardness the object had before it was animated (metal so 10 in this case) and can get some special attacks based on its shape. Swallow whole isn't mentioned, so it looks like they just traded out 5 of the hardness for the ability. Strangely, by doing so, made it an 'easier' fight for lower level characters.

Using Pathfinder, an Animated Object (medium) would have close to the same stat block but be a CR 3. Granted, the module creature has 2 lower strength and a few less HP, but has grab/swallow whole. The PF Animated Object would have 2 construction points to use. From the list of options, I don't see swallow whole, but I do see grab and constrict which might be a reasonable option if you were rebuilding. Heck, it could spend 1 of the points on Stone for 8 hardness and +1 natural armor, or both points on Metal for 10 hardness and +2 natural armor.

TLDR: Probably should be a CR 3 not CR 2 under the PF ruleset, but is well within the realm of possibility.

[Slim Jim]

Quote:

As the other 4-5 rounds pile on the Arcane caster might identify the monster, realize it's Hardness defense, and use battlefield control spells such as Expeditious Excavation, Grease, or Obscuring Mist to enhance the positioning of the fighter and perhaps impose another Condition such as Prone.

Why wait that long? IMO, Grease is one of the most underutilized offensive spells in the game, capable of converting low-level nailbiter encounters into cakewalks. Unlike other AoE, it's ongoing, so the opponent(s) standing in it have repeated opportunities to fail and go down.

[Mark Hoover 330]

So, here's the thing with Grease; if cast directly on the construct yes, it triggers a save. However with the ongoing effect all a creature has to do is... walk around it.

I've read the module so I know where the fight takes place. Even in the initial activation area of the construct there's a little bit of space for it to move around. If the fight spills back outside there's a LOT of open ground for it to use.

But let's say you cast it directly on the thing. This is one of the options I mentioned above - using a spell to inflict a Condition that grants combat advantage to the party. However it still has a chance, however slim, to make the save. Should it do so this means that the party spellcaster is roughly about 10' - 30' from a monster with a low attack bonus but very disruptive form of damage.

It is a CR2 fight though; not without risk.

Folks tell me all the time how Grease is an unsung hero of low levels. I've seen it in use in my games, to average effect. It is a niche spell in practice; 2 squares in the right positioning that can't be Charged through can be devastating to foes using that tactic. Then again if you're facing just a handful of Stirges near an open marsh, the spell is next to useless. I'm just saying that Grease is as useful as other AoE spells are at this level.

[Slim Jim]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, here's the thing with Grease; if cast directly on the construct yes, it triggers a save. However with the ongoing effect all a creature has to do is... walk around it.

And that's why a Bull Rush tank on your side is a fun thing to have.

"Oh, you don't want to step there? Was there something there you didn't wanna step in?" <shove>

[Yqatuba]

Isn't the creature in question mindless? If so I would assume it's too stupid to avoid walking in the grease.