First time poster, sorry if I trail off.
So here's the scenario. An 8th lvl monk/Master of many styles(not unchained) has Crane style and the Panther style/Panther claw feats. when he begins combat, he uses crane style and panther style both as a swift action and then activates the Total Defense action and moves through the enemies spaces to provoke AoO's and dish out his retaliatory attacks because they're free actions now.
Can the monk do this by RAW?
The argument my friends have is that the total defense action removes your ability to attack in any way, shape or form. They came to this conclusion by reading the Melee Tactics Toolbox pathfinder book which states on page 8:
Use Defensive Combat Options: If you’re easily hitting your opponent, or if survival is more important than dealing damage, you can increase your Armor Class at the expense of your attack bonus by fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat. Using the total defense action prevents you from attacking—including making attacks of opportunity—but you still threaten foes for the purposes of f lanking. Alternatively, you can use the aid another action to increase another character’s Armor Class.
However, in the PFSRD, it states under the total defense action:
Total Defense: You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
The actual explanation of the ability basically states you exchange your standard action, which is normally reserved for attacks, and AoO's to gain the benefits of the total defense AC. It doesn't, however, state that you're now in capable of attacking after using the total defense action.
Since the Melee Tactics Toolbox book says the total defense action prevents you from attacking, they theorize that once you take a Total defense action, you cannot attack someone with any ability that would normally allow you to do so. You cannot use quickened Rays of Frost with total defense because technically you have to hit someone's AC. You cannot use Panther Style's retaliatory attacks because they're attacks against someones AC. They said you can use fireballs with the Total defense action because you don't need to hit another persons AC.
Additionally, the halfling feat "Desperate Swing" allows you to attack during a total defense action. They believe this implies that all other forms of attacking during a total defense cannot be done unless specifically stated otherwise, like in this feat.
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The text in the melee tactics toolbox appears to be non binding as it appears to be more of a strategy suggestion than rules text.
In addition, the Core Rulebook combat chapter takes precedence over other books, and the Core Rulebook combat chapter states that you may not take attacks of opportunity,
Panther style does not grant attacks of opportunity therefore you may still make the attacks.
By RAW you can make Panther Style's "retaliatory strikes." However, your friends probably have the right of it by RAI; that's why it's called "total" defense.
By RAW you can make Panther Style's "retaliatory strikes." However, your friends probably have the right of it by RAI; that's why it's called "total" defense.
It might be possible that it is RAI, but I remain unconvinced. My belief is that since total defense has existed in the game just as long as quickened spells have, the creators must have foreseen people using such abilities with the total defense action (I mean, what melee caster wouldn't combine a bonus to AC with his quickened spells?) so it doesn't make much sense to me that seeing how these abilities could have been used together since the beginning, why wouldn't the creators have changed the written rules if wasn't intended to be used like that?
The question here is how are you activating two swift actions in the same round? You can only activate one. Either way, your panther style is giving you attacks, which are explicitly called out as not being allowed by total defence.
I'm not sure what you mean by activating two swift actions in the same round? Panther claw turns my retaliatory attacks into free actions instead of swift actions, and I can activate Panther style and Crane style both on the same turn with one swift action because I'm an 8th level Master of Many Styles, which I stated.
As fearcypher has said, the book which states Total defense cannot use attacks isn't a rulebook. It's a strategy book which is intended to give simple summaries of tactics, not the full unabridged versions of them. Since that's the case, we can assume that it was an oversight from the strategy book and not the RAW which doesn't say anywhere I cannot use any forms of attack during a total defense action.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
the creators must have foreseen people using such abilities
AHhAHAHAHAHAH--
the creators must have foreseen people using such abilities
AHhAHAHAHAHAH--
I'm using foreseen ironically of course, but you should be able to understand what I mean.
Casters could use quickened spells while in total defense even before the first printing of the core rulebook, and yet after all these years they haven't changed that fact. I wonder if it's because some attacks should be able to be used during a total defense. Not all, which is why it costs a standard action and removes your AoO's, but some that are hard to come by or difficult to use in every situation.
I think this is a case of live by RAW, die by RAW.
Nothing in RAW forces any opponent to make an attack of opportunity against you (even if logically they shouldn't be smart enough to know not to, it certainly isn't a rule) so even if you get a agreement that this technically works, it won't necessarily do you any good, as you could never, ever, be attacked again while in total defense no matter how often you provoke.
Both the CRB and the MTT say the same thing; when you take a total defense action, you cannot attack---including attacks of opportunity. I don't see where your confusion is coming from; it doesn't matter that panther style normally lets you make retaliatory strikes; if you give up your ability to attack, that takes precedence.
See Crane Riposte as an example of this; it has specific rules text which lets you make one attack of opportunity per round while using the total defense action, after using crane wing, even though you can't normally. None of the Panther style feats have this text.
Where does it say in the CRB that I can't use the Panther styles Swift action or free action attacks with Total Defense? Also you seem to be confused... It says absolutely no where in the Core rulebook that I cannot attack during a total defense. Look at the ability:
Total Defense: You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
Does it say anywhere there that I can't attack at all? No, it only states that I cannot use a standard action during a total defense, which is normally used to attack. In the MTT, it only states briefly that I am prevented from attacking, I.e from using an attack which is briefly defined in the CRB as:
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Which makes sense. Using Total Defense costs a standard action so it prevents an attack.
However, Retaliatory attacks and quickened spells are different because they only use a swift action, something that the Total defense doesn't cost, so you should be able to use them by RAW during a total defense. It is, however, difficult to know if it's allowed by RAI. I think since total defense and quickened spells have coexist for the same amount of time, the creators probably thought it wasn't a problem for them to be used together. I was hoping this thread might be able to get some official source but that yet to be to be the case...
I think this is a case of live by RAW, die by RAW.
Nothing in RAW forces any opponent to make an attack of opportunity against you (even if logically they shouldn't be smart enough to know not to, it certainly isn't a rule) so even if you get a agreement that this technically works, it won't necessarily do you any good, as you could never, ever, be attacked again while in total defense no matter how often you provoke.
I agree because this is very true. Even if I got everyone to agree that this is suppose to work by RAI, I could never truly make this build work effectively; However, I care more about the actuality of this build working than I care about the practicality of it. I think characters should be able to use whatever attacks they can during a total defense because the price of a whole standard action and your attacks of opportunity is a hefty prince just to get a +4 bonus to ac...
Sputtering aside: Going by the rules, Panther Style works fine during total defense, assuming you can finagle a means to attack, such as panther style's retaliatory strike or a mythic path ability's swift action attack. Was this intentional? Who knows. It is certainly plausible that they didn't think about it when writing that block, or that it the description was the simplest clean verbiage they could think of within the text limit. It's even possible that there was originally more detail but that it was trimmed out in editing. You'd have to chat with the 3.5 designers, as the language goes back that far.
(3.0's language forbade any other action other than moving at speed while using total defense. I sort of prefer this as it emphasizes that your attention is fully occupied with survival, but it makes the ability even less likely to be utilized than the current version, which at least allows you to, say, pull something out of your haversack.)
idk what melee tactic book is, by the core rule book - total def is a standard action that also prevent you from taking aoo, nothing more.
if you can attack as free,immidiate,swift or move action, you can still do it (say venom blade fighter with high enough level to spit venom as swift action or caster with a quickend spell). the crane style tree 3rd feat let you make an attack while in dodtal def.
normal peopel can't attack while in total def becuase they lack the options. but should you find a way around it your good. (my fev was turlte style going into total def and getting a grapple check as immidate action when missed using 'turtle clutch' - 'Come at me Bro!').
Going by CRB that's true, it never specifically says you cannot attack, Going by MTT it specifically states you cannot attack though, which makes way more sense when you consider feats like Desperate swing which specifically allow you to make an attack in total defense 1/day.Sputtering aside: Going by the rules, Panther Style works fine during total defense, assuming you can finagle a means to attack, such as panther style's retaliatory strike or a mythic path ability's swift action attack.
I don't have Melee Tactics Toolbox, so I don't know the context for the quote posted earlier in the thread. But I stand by my statement, as Melee Tactics Toolbox doesn't strike me as an appropriate place to put mandatory changes to the core rules. Desperate Swing works fine under both interpretations.