Hey James,
perhaps you can help clear something up for me and my pathfinder group.
A While ago, a situation came up which made us question how Total Defense was intended to work by RAI. Without going into much detail of the situation, the question is:
Could you, on the same turn, make an attack action that didn’t require a standard action to perform (such as a quickened Scorching Ray) right after using your standard action to take a Total Defense?
Our confusion came from the Pathfinder Companion Sourcebook, Melee Tactics Toolbox, which states on page 8:
Melee Tactics Toolbox wrote:
Use Defensive Combat Options: If you’re easily hitting your opponent, or if survival is more important than dealing damage, you can increase your Armor Class at the expense of your attack bonus by fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat. Using the total defense action prevents you from attacking—including making attacks of opportunity—but you still threaten foes for the purposes of flanking. Alternatively, you can use the aid another action to increase another character’s Armor Class.
Some people in my group believe this description means that the total defense action was intended to remove your ability to attack in any way, shape or form.
While others say this book isn’t a Rulebook and therefore simply misrepresented what the Total Defense action actually does.
I think this is a case of live by RAW, die by RAW.
Nothing in RAW forces any opponent to make an attack of opportunity against you (even if logically they shouldn't be smart enough to know not to, it certainly isn't a rule) so even if you get a agreement that this technically works, it won't necessarily do you any good, as you could never, ever, be attacked again while in total defense no matter how often you provoke.
I agree because this is very true. Even if I got everyone to agree that this is suppose to work by RAI, I could never truly make this build work effectively; However, I care more about the actuality of this build working than I care about the practicality of it. I think characters should be able to use whatever attacks they can during a total defense because the price of a whole standard action and your attacks of opportunity is a hefty prince just to get a +4 bonus to ac...
Both the CRB and the MTT say the same thing; when you take a total defense action, you cannot attack---including attacks of opportunity. I don't see where your confusion is coming from; it doesn't matter that panther style normally lets you make retaliatory strikes; if you give up your ability to attack, that takes precedence.
See Crane Riposte as an example of this; it has specific rules text which lets you make one attack of opportunity per round while using the total defense action, after using crane wing, even though you can't normally. None of the Panther style feats have this text.
Where does it say in the CRB that I can't use the Panther styles Swift action or free action attacks with Total Defense? Also you seem to be confused... It says absolutely no where in the Core rulebook that I cannot attack during a total defense. Look at the ability:
Core Rulebook, page 186 says wrote:
Total Defense: You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
Does it say anywhere there that I can't attack at all? No, it only states that I cannot use a standard action during a total defense, which is normally used to attack. In the MTT, it only states briefly that I am prevented from attacking, I.e from using an attack which is briefly defined in the CRB as:
Core Rulebook pg 182 wrote:
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Which makes sense. Using Total Defense costs a standard action so it prevents an attack.
However, Retaliatory attacks and quickened spells are different because they only use a swift action, something that the Total defense doesn't cost, so you should be able to use them by RAW during a total defense. It is, however, difficult to know if it's allowed by RAI. I think since total defense and quickened spells have coexist for the same amount of time, the creators probably thought it wasn't a problem for them to be used together. I was hoping this thread might be able to get some official source but that yet to be to be the case...
the creators must have foreseen people using such abilities
*spits out beverage*
AHhAHAHAHAHAH--*hack* *cough* *sputter*
I'm using foreseen ironically of course, but you should be able to understand what I mean.
Casters could use quickened spells while in total defense even before the first printing of the core rulebook, and yet after all these years they haven't changed that fact. I wonder if it's because some attacks should be able to be used during a total defense. Not all, which is why it costs a standard action and removes your AoO's, but some that are hard to come by or difficult to use in every situation.
The question here is how are you activating two swift actions in the same round? You can only activate one. Either way, your panther style is giving you attacks, which are explicitly called out as not being allowed by total defence.
I'm not sure what you mean by activating two swift actions in the same round? Panther claw turns my retaliatory attacks into free actions instead of swift actions, and I can activate Panther style and Crane style both on the same turn with one swift action because I'm an 8th level Master of Many Styles, which I stated.
As fearcypher has said, the book which states Total defense cannot use attacks isn't a rulebook. It's a strategy book which is intended to give simple summaries of tactics, not the full unabridged versions of them. Since that's the case, we can assume that it was an oversight from the strategy book and not the RAW which doesn't say anywhere I cannot use any forms of attack during a total defense action.
By RAW you can make Panther Style's "retaliatory strikes." However, your friends probably have the right of it by RAI; that's why it's called "total" defense.
It might be possible that it is RAI, but I remain unconvinced. My belief is that since total defense has existed in the game just as long as quickened spells have, the creators must have foreseen people using such abilities with the total defense action (I mean, what melee caster wouldn't combine a bonus to AC with his quickened spells?) so it doesn't make much sense to me that seeing how these abilities could have been used together since the beginning, why wouldn't the creators have changed the written rules if wasn't intended to be used like that?
So here's the scenario. An 8th lvl monk/Master of many styles(not unchained) has Crane style and the Panther style/Panther claw feats. when he begins combat, he uses crane style and panther style both as a swift action and then activates the Total Defense action and moves through the enemies spaces to provoke AoO's and dish out his retaliatory attacks because they're free actions now.
Can the monk do this by RAW?
The argument my friends have is that the total defense action removes your ability to attack in any way, shape or form. They came to this conclusion by reading the Melee Tactics Toolbox pathfinder book which states on page 8:
Melee Tactics Toolbox book wrote:
Use Defensive Combat Options: If you’re easily hitting your opponent, or if survival is more important than dealing damage, you can increase your Armor Class at the expense of your attack bonus by fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat. Using the total defense action prevents you from attacking—including making attacks of opportunity—but you still threaten foes for the purposes of f lanking. Alternatively, you can use the aid another action to increase another character’s Armor Class.
However, in the PFSRD, it states under the total defense action:
PFSRD wrote:
Total Defense: You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
The actual explanation of the ability basically states you exchange your standard action, which is normally reserved for attacks, and AoO's to gain the benefits of the total defense AC. It doesn't, however, state that you're now in capable of attacking after using the total defense action.
Since the Melee Tactics Toolbox book says the total defense action prevents you from attacking, they theorize that once you take a Total defense action, you cannot attack someone with any ability that would normally allow you to do so. You cannot use quickened Rays of Frost with total defense because technically you have to hit someone's AC. You cannot use Panther Style's retaliatory attacks because they're attacks against someones AC. They said you can use fireballs with the Total defense action because you don't need to hit another persons AC.
Additionally, the halfling feat "Desperate Swing" allows you to attack during a total defense action. They believe this implies that all other forms of attacking during a total defense cannot be done unless specifically stated otherwise, like in this feat.
Full Name
Bob Slasher
Race
Human
Classes/Levels
Ninja 3 | AC 17 | Touch 14 | Flat 13 | HP 33/33 | Init +6 | Per +6 | F +3 | R +7 | W+1 | CMB +4 | CMD 18 | Stealth +9
Gender
Male
Size
Medium
Age
28
Alignment
NE
Location
Unknown
Languages
Common
Occupation
assassin, thief, adventurer
Strength
14
Dexterity
18
Constitution
14
Intelligence
10
Wisdom
10
Charisma
14
About Bob Slasher
Male human ninja 3
NE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +6
Combat:
DEFENSE AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13(+3 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 33
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +1; +2 to saves vs. divination
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk. wakizashi +6(1d6+2/18-20)/wakizashi +5(1d6+1/18-20) or mwk. wakizashi +8 (1d6+2/18-20)
Ranged shortbow +6(1d6)
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 18
Skills:
Acrobatics +9, Appraise +4, Bluff +7, Climb +5,
Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +8, Disguise +7, Escape Artist +8, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (Local) +4, Perception +6, Ride +3, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +9, Stealth (Stationary for at least one round) +10, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +8
No Trace (Ex) The ninja learnt to cover her tracks, remain hidden, and conceal her presence. The DC to track a ninja using the Survival skill increases by +1. In addition, her training gives her a +1 insight bonus on Disguise skill checks and on opposed Stealth checks whenever she is stationary and does not take any action for at least 1 round.
Poison Use At 1st level, a ninja is trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon.
Sneak Attack If a ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The ninja's attacks deal extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the ninja flanks her target. This extra damage is 2d6. Bonus damage from sneak attacks is precision damage. Should the ninja score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this precision damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a ninja can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, even with the usual ?4 penalty. The ninja must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot, and must be able to reach this spot. A ninja cannot sneak attack while striking a creature that has concealment.
Ki abilites:
Ki pool(Su) At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows).
By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
Ki pool 3/3
Ninja tricks Weapon Training A ninja who selects this ninja trick gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
Vanishing Trick (Su) As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.
Gear:
Arrows(40)
Backpack
Rations(7)
Shortbow
Wakizashi(2)
Mwk. Wakizashi
Club
Studded Leather
Potion of enlarge person
Thieves tools
Torch(2)
Waterskin(Filled)
Gold:1702.48
Story:
Bob was always the nice guy in town, keeping to himself. What the other townspeople didn't know is that Bob is actually a contract criminal, making killing and theft his business. And business is good.
