Is there a way to coup de grace yourself?

[willuwontu]

Is there a way to coup de grace yourself, without outside assistance?

[Brew Bird]

This is generally a GM fiat thing, but my group has always allowed players and NPCs to coup de grace themselves. After all, you should be helpless to yourself, shouldn't you?

[Jeff Morse]

Sure. There is a haunt in a PFS scenerio that causes you to do just that. When i team it, it was a gnome that got caught in it. He of course could not kill himself.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

You'd still provoke an attack of opportunity, so beware those trying to disarm you.

Hrm... If you're intent on hitting yourself with a coup de grace, you most likely threaten yourself and therefore provoke an attack of opportunity from yourself.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Galt has some FINE blades for this.

I'm sure they'd be willing to hook up a proper Enemy of the State.

[Baba Ganoush]

Pshhh! Coup de grace yourself? That's for noobs. Experienced players bent on character destruction choose Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh
Not only can you end yourself you can:
1) do it as an immediate action
2) Prevent spells such as raise dead or speak with dead from being used on your remains
3) possibly damage and blind creatures in a 5' radius
4) possibly blind creatures in a 10' radius
5) Leave all your equipment for your buddies to loot*

* This is a great option if:
1) Your GM is stingy
2) Your party is allowed to loot PC corpses
3) You can start new PCs with appropriate WBL

Just make a PC that has equipment the other characters can benefit from, take this feat, charge the creatures in your new PCs first encounter, self-immolate = party profits.

[Jhaeman]

I had a long-running character do it to spite a demonic entity from taking over her body; and I had to have her soul refuse to reenter the body when an attempt was made to raise it from the dead!

[Dark Midian]

Believe there was a special clause in most of the ninja mooks's text in certain parts of the Jade Regent AP where they specifically said, "If it looks like they're about to get taken captive, they attempt to commit seppuku at the first opportunity, which is treated as a coup de grace attack on themselves."

[BigNorseWolf]

Step 1, reach dishonor level "dishonor on your cow..."

[willuwontu]

The idea is to abuse the Gift of consumption hex.

Since Coup de grace has you make a fort save if you survive the damage, and you move that save to an enemy (in 30 feet of you).

[Pax Miles]

willuwontu wrote:

The idea is to abuse the Gift of consumption hex.

Since Coup de grace has you make a fort save if you survive the damage, and you move that save to an enemy (in 30 feet of you).

Even if the GM allows coup de grace against yourself, strongly doubt they would allow this combination.

[The Sideromancer]

Eh, d6 HD auto-critting self could add up, especially if carrying capacity is enforced so you can't dump str into the gutters.

[willuwontu]

You're also taking the damage and have to survive it, so it's not like it'll be a catch-all thing. Just something that you do as a last resort/silent assassination.

[BigNorseWolf]

Just because you transfer the save wouldn't mean that you transfer the damage that caused the save

[willuwontu]

Yup

Edit

You take the damage, they make the save.

[toastedamphibian]

I can't see any rule reason why it wouldn't work. Kind of thematically awesome as well.

Extra fun if paired with a Bone Razor Final Word

[Avoron]

Better yet, just tie up your nycar familiar, take over their body with marionette possession, and have the barbarian coup de grace you repeatedly with a scythe. You can't die from the hp damage, you stay conscious into the negatives, and all the while you'll be forcing enemies to make like DC 84 Fort saves or die.

[Snakers]

I'm getting Yoshimitsu vibes and I love it. The witch is so voodoo that she stabs herself and other people die...

[Jhaeman]

So overpowered, but deliciously evil!

[toastedamphibian]

I don't think you make a fort save if your possessed body is CDG'D, do you? Think the body would make the save.

[Avoron]

You explicitly keep your own base save bonuses, so it's clear that you're the one making the saves.

[TriOmegaZero]

According to the rules, no. However, it's not really something you need rules for.

[phantom1592]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

According to the rules, no. However, it's not really something you need rules for.

I'd agree with this... Thematically it's something you could do, but RAW?? You can only coup de grace is a full-round-action against a target that is helpless... A helpless target can't take full round actions...

I don't see a rules way to let the target and the aggressor of the Coup De Grace be the same person...

[Zautos']

The easy solution. Have a friend do it.

You can take 2-3 feats to get an animal companion that you can learn a trick to Coup De Grace you.

[Matthew Downie]

Zautos' wrote:

You can take 2-3 feats to get an animal companion that you can learn a trick to Coup De Grace you.

Three animal trainers died in mysterious circumstances while teaching my pet bear the 'kill me' trick.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Avoron wrote:

Better yet, just tie up your nycar familiar, take over their body with marionette possession, and have the barbarian coup de grace you repeatedly with a scythe. You can't die from the hp damage, you stay conscious into the negatives, and all the while you'll be forcing enemies to make like DC 84 Fort saves or die.

I don’t understand any of this.

[Matthew Downie]

So, this was presumably to go with the 'gift of consumption' hex mentioned above which forces another creature to suffer Fortitude-save effects on your behalf.

The Marionette Possession would replace 'you' with your familiar, so the familiar takes the hit point damage and the target of your hex has to make the fortitude save or die.

The Nycar has ferocity, so won't go unconscious.

I feel like I'm missing something that would stop the hit point damage killing the Nycar?

[Volkard Abendroth]

Matthew Downie wrote:

So, this was presumably to go with the 'gift of consumption' hex mentioned above which forces another creature to suffer Fortitude-save effects on your behalf.

The Marionette Possession would replace 'you' with your familiar, so the familiar takes the hit point damage and the target of your hex has to make the fortitude save or die.

The Nycar has ferocity, so won't go unconscious.

I feel like I'm missing something that would stop the hit point damage killing the Nycar?

Regeneration 1/cold Iron

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

So, this was presumably to go with the 'gift of consumption' hex mentioned above which forces another creature to suffer Fortitude-save effects on your behalf.

The Marionette Possession would replace 'you' with your familiar, so the familiar takes the hit point damage and the target of your hex has to make the fortitude save or die.

The Nycar has ferocity, so won't go unconscious.

I feel like I'm missing something that would stop the hit point damage killing the Nycar?

Regeneration 1/cold Iron

Ahh. Gotcha.

[Avoron]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

So, this was presumably to go with the 'gift of consumption' hex mentioned above which forces another creature to suffer Fortitude-save effects on your behalf.

The Marionette Possession would replace 'you' with your familiar, so the familiar takes the hit point damage and the target of your hex has to make the fortitude save or die.

The Nycar has ferocity, so won't go unconscious.

I feel like I'm missing something that would stop the hit point damage killing the Nycar?

Regeneration 1/cold Iron

Ahh. Gotcha.

Yep. Regeneration and ferocity are a ridiculous combination, and basically just turn your familiar into an infinite damage sink until someone pulls out a cold iron weapon.

[toastedamphibian]

Okay... the possessed creature has to make the fort save to avoid death? So if they fail, they die, but the body lives, somehow?

Also, the possessed is taking damage, not the witch, so the DC is 10+damage dealt to target, or 10, yeah?

[Avoron]

toastedamphibian wrote:

Okay... the possessed creature has to make the fort save to avoid death? So if they fail, they die, but the body lives, somehow?

Also, the possessed is taking damage, not the witch, so the DC is 10+damage dealt to target, or 10, yeah?

Um... no. If a witch possesses their familiar, they're just a witch who happens to have the body of their familiar. They have their own class and mental abilities, but their familiar's hp and automatic abilities. If they're targeted with a coup de grace, they take the damage and they make the Fort save.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Pretty sure you can do it RAW. No reason you can't make yourself helpless to.....yourself.

Plus I've seen published scenarios where Haunts cause you to coup de grace yourself and enemy tactics where they coup de grace themselves. It's very clearly at least meant to be something you can do.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

I thought you couldn't Coup de Grace a regenerating creature unless its regeneration was shut off. Or am I thinking of a different, but entirely similar game?

[Snowblind]

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

I thought you couldn't Coup de Grace a regenerating creature unless its regeneration was shut off. Or am I thinking of a different, but entirely similar game?

You can Coup de Grace a regenerating creature, but it will just hurt it a bunch unless you shut off its regeneration.

[willuwontu]

prd wrote:

creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0

Witch can't take the immediate action to pass the save if they're unconscious.

[Avoron]

willuwontu wrote:

prd wrote:

creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0

Witch can't take the immediate action to pass the save if they're unconscious.

Nycar wrote:

Defensive Abilities ferocity

Ferocity wrote:

A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round.

[wraithstrike]

Coup de grace is not an effect, anymore than cold weather is an effect, and both of them can require saves. It is an act you can take against someone just much like disarming, but with a more devastating result if it succeeds.

[Snakers]

You cant have someone else do it since the hex specifies it must be an effect you cause yourself.. I think.

[Avoron]

wraithstrike wrote:

Coup de grace is not an effect, anymore than cold weather is an effect, and both of them can require saves. It is an act you can take against someone just much like disarming, but with a more devastating result if it succeeds.

The Fort save from a coup de grace is absolutely an effect - that's why constructs and undead are immune to it.

And weather conditions are definitely effects too.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage wrote:

Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage.

Snakers wrote:

You cant have someone else do it since the hex specifies it must be an effect you cause yourself.. I think.

Nope, it's a disjunction.

Greater Gift of Consumption wrote:

If the witch ever fails a Fortitude save or intentionally exposes herself to an effect that requires a Fortitude save, such as by ingesting a poison, she can redirect that effect to affect only the hexed creature, though the hexed creature can still attempt a saving throw to resist the effects.

[TriOmegaZero]

Of course, the GM can easily interpret that the familiar is the one making the Fort save, and so it does not count for Gift of Consumption due to the witch not making the save.

[Avoron]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Of course, the GM can easily interpret that the familiar is the one making the Fort save, and so it does not count for Gift of Consumption due to the witch not making the save.

I mean, the GM can interpret whatever they want, but the spell explicitly states that you keep your base save bonuses. That line would be entirely pointless if the possessed creature made saves instead of you.

Honestly, I'd rather just respond that it works fine... once. Then your enemies hear about it and start buying cold iron in bulk.

[Matthew Downie]

Avoron wrote:

Then your enemies hear about it and start buying cold iron in bulk.

That would only (a) work with well-informed intelligent enemies, and (b) require them to hit the possessed familiar with a cold iron weapon every turn before anyone can coup de grace it.

[ProfPotts]

If you coup-de-grace a creature which can't die from the attack does it still make the save, but it doesn't matter either way if it fails, or does it just not need to make the save (meaning, in the weirdly hilarious example presented above, there's nothing to pass via hex to your victim)?

[Avoron]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Then your enemies hear about it and start buying cold iron in bulk.

That would only (a) work with well-informed intelligent enemies, and (b) require them to hit the possessed familiar with a cold iron weapon every turn before anyone can coup de grace it.

Naturally. If they want to keep using that tactic, nothing has to stop them. There will just always be a risk that they'll pull the trick on the wrong opponent and end up with a very dead familiar.