| Balkoth |
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I'm running a long term campaign. How do you handle these spells (including their cost and their power)?
I'd rather not have players running around with 12 angels/devils/demons in tow expecting the money spent back at the next level (since presumably it's similar to consumables where it doesn't count against your overall WBL over the long term, at least).
| blahpers |
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In my experience, there's more than enough in the spells themselves to mitigate gross exploits. Planar ally doesn't guarantee that the caster gets the particular outsider(s) that they want; hazardous aid costs more in service or treasure; and a planetar will likely not appreciate being called to Golarion for a task it finds unworthy or demeaning. Planar binding is nontrivial to pull off and even when successful can leave the caster with more problems than they started with. And don't get me started on entice fey--if you think genies are jackasses, try bargaining with the Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair.
| Dasrak |
Planar Ally is generally kept in check by its cost. If you actually calculate the cost of calling a reasonably strong outsider for non-trivial service, it's ridiculously expensive. If Planar Ally has a reputation for being "broken", it's because the spell's cost is so obscenely high that the only time anyone ever uses it is when they're planning on doing something extremely cheesy. Since you ultimately have control over what kind of outsider is sent, this generally keeps the spell under control and I don't regard it as a serious problem.
Planar Binding is where things can get broken if you're not careful, because there's nothing saying you have to offer the outsiders anything in return. In fact, there's largely no reason to give any offering at all since the cost is vastly out of proportion with its effect on the opposed charisma roll. One outsider can change the course of your game substantially, but the PC's have nothing that forces them to stop at one. This is one of those spells that, if a player actually takes their time to optimize its usage, can be world-shattering. And yet, I think the concept of a devil-binder or demon-binder actually does work very well in Pathfinder, and that naturally extends to other kinds of outsiders. So the idea that such NPC's are just abusing a legitimately powerful type of magic fits well into the theme and lore.
The easiest solution is just the gentleman's accord. If your players understand how broken this spell can be and agree to use it sparingly if at all, you won't have problems. Sometimes, though, players may legitimately interested in making use of this spell. In that case, I feel the best course of action is to work it into your narrative. Have your player's misuse of planar forces come back to haunt them at inopportune times. Power at a price is something that planar binding does very well, and while it can take some creativity to work that into your particular plot I feel that this is the best solution to controlling this potentially game-breaking spell.
| Balkoth |
Planar Ally is generally kept in check by its cost.
But do you treat the cost as a permanent expense (aka "Bob you're level 18 and would have 530k WBL BUT you've spent 200k on casting (Lesser/Greater) Planar Ally and thus only have 330k WBL") or do you "replace" it like you would with consumables?
If your players understand how broken this spell can be and agree to use it sparingly if at all, you won't have problems. Sometimes, though, players may legitimately interested in making use of this spell. In that case, I feel the best course of action is to work it into your narrative.
To directly quote two players...
"so how would you handle planar ally in general? you have two people who can use it"
"I really like the idea for asking for help when we really need it
but there is also https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-calling/
i wanted to make a guy thats about calling for help from allies that I could maybe make freinds with
it overall might be a worse build"
So at least one of the players wants to be it an integral part of their character.
I'm also running two campaigns (or rather, the same campaign just one group at level 10 and the other at level 6). It would be rather awkward to have to shift the narrative of one campaign but not the other solely because of these two lines of spells (and whether the party used them)...
| blahpers |
But do you treat the cost as a permanent expense (aka "Bob you're level 18 and would have 530k WBL BUT you've spent 200k on casting (Lesser/Greater) Planar Ally and thus only have 330k WBL") or do you "replace" it like you would with consumables?
It's a consumable expenditure, so over time the balance should shift back to WBL. How long that takes is up to you. If the player wants their PC to call one or more particular allies as a central concept, and the allies are amenable to such an arrangement, you might consider working out an agreement for a long-term service rather than the usual 1 day/caster level. This might be a mutual thing--the ally may call upon the PC to perform services in kind in order to maintain their arrangement. Remember, gold is not the only currency in such arrangements, and there are more ways to make deals with devils than bog-standard CRB spells.
For something more under the player's control, I'd suggest they run a character with a cohort, eidolon, or similar feature.
| Douglas Muir 406 |
As others have noted, Planar Ally is balanced by (1) the cost; (2) the fact that since it's an appeal to the PC's deity, the PC gets whatever outsider the deity (you the DM) think is appropriate; and, (3) the fact that it's an ally, not a summoned monster or a slave. It'll start off being loyal and helpful, but if the PC tries to use it in ways not consistent with its alignment, or as cannon fodder, that can change very quickly.
Now: as you level up, the cost of this spell increases in a linear way, while the power of the outsiders called increases much faster. So while this is a huge, crippling expense at midlevels, by the highest levels -- 16 and up -- the amounts involved are getting pretty small compared to WBL. So at this point cost is less of an issue. But points (2) and (3) still apply.
Note that it may occasionally happen that the deity sends the PC an Ally who doesn't seem to make much sense at first -- is underpowered or has abilities that seem useless or irrelevant. Of course then it turns out the Ally's abilities or knowledge will be extremely useful down the line -- if the PCs are paying attention. A chance to exercise some creativity, if that's your sort of thing.
cheers,
Doug M.
| Douglas Muir 406 |
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As to planar binding: what you want is DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding, which is long and detailed and discusses (among other things) how to balance this spell in an ongoing campaign. You can find that Guide right here, along with a bunch of other Guides that might be interesting or useful now that these spells are coming into your campaign. (Tip: maybe don't let your players get their hands on the Guides to the individual Planar Binding spells unless you're ready to deal with the consequences.)
cheers,
Doug M.
| Balkoth |
Note that it may occasionally happen that the deity sends the PC an Ally who doesn't seem to make much sense at first -- is underpowered or has abilities that seem useless or irrelevant.
If they say "Hi we're about to storm a Hobgoblin fortress and want some extra power" that doesn't seem to really give a bunch of wiggle room. It's just a straight power buff (which gets replaced long term)...and can be used to call multiple entities.
| Adjoint |
I always rule that the bound outsiders have no compulsion to obey the command imposed them, therefore it's in the binder's own interest to offer them a deal they accept. The only thing that binding magic does is bringing them to Material Plane, keeping them trapped in the magic circle until the deal is made, and sending them back when the task is fulfilled. Charisma roll allows to impose the condition of return on an outsider without its consent, but that's all. If an outsider wants to go back, it may be forced to serve, but if it has its own means of planar travel or doesn't care about going back, the binder needs to deal with it in another way. The binder may use intimidation, magic compulsion or domiantion, or offer the outsider something they want.
Planar Binding is no mind-affecting magic, and does not remove the outsider's free will.
| pad300 |
I always rule that the bound outsiders have no compulsion to obey the command imposed them, therefore it's in the binder's own interest to offer them a deal they accept. The only thing that binding magic does is bringing them to Material Plane, keeping them trapped in the magic circle until the deal is made, and sending them back when the task is fulfilled. Charisma roll allows to impose the condition of return on an outsider without its consent, but that's all. If an outsider wants to go back, it may be forced to serve, but if it has its own means of planar travel or doesn't care about going back, the binder needs to deal with it in another way. The binder may use intimidation, magic compulsion or domiantion, or offer the outsider something they want.
Planar Binding is no mind-affecting magic, and does not remove the outsider's free will.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting here.
As I read it, I get the impression that as a binder, if I coerce say a demon into a contract to serve me, by achieving my opposed charisma check, backed up by threats and torture ( Agonize spell ), they are promptly free to break the contract and attack me/betray the contract at any convenient time as soon as they are outside the magic circle? So any deal should be arrived at purely voluntarily, and I still can't trust them not to change their mind later?
That seems a little contrary to the vast majority of the examples in literature... Why would anyone use this spell to conjure anything but lawful (and likely good) beings?
| Adjoint |
I'm not sure what you are suggesting here.
As I read it, I get the impression that as a binder, if I coerce say a demon into a contract to serve me, by achieving my opposed charisma check, backed up by threats and torture ( Agonize spell ), they are promptly free to break the contract and attack me/betray the contract at any convenient time as soon as they are outside the magic circle? So any deal should be arrived at purely voluntarily, and I still can't trust them not to change their mind later?
That seems a little contrary to the vast majority of the examples in literature... Why would anyone use this spell to conjure anything but lawful (and likely good) beings?
You can convince chaotic outsiders to serve the same way you can convince chaotic mortlas to serve. With reward, or convincing them that any attempt to disobey you will mean their death. Also, the fact that if they don't fullfill your task they may never get back to their plane may force them to obey you even if they'd rather murder you.
Yes, they are much less reliable than the lawful creatures, that's the point. Although even lawful outsiders are not forced to do what you want. Just that you cast a magic on them that keeps them on a Material Plane unless they do a specific thing, doesn't mean they had agreed on anything. Though if you make them agree on the task first, it improves your chances.
When deciding on a type of outsider to bind you need to remember that they have their own goals. While devils want to corrupt mortals and make them perform evil deeds, demons just want destruction. The kind of outsider you bind should fit the task. For example, if you want an outsider to kill the family of your enemy, an appropriate demon (like babau) may do it happily and maybe even not ask for anything in return, just the opportunity to massacre some mortals is enough. Devil on the other hand would like you to sign a contract that would require you to make a proper payment or perform some service in return. And a LG archon would never do that, even if that would mean that it will never return to Heaven.
You can still force an outsider to serve you, even a chaotic one, but you'd need to constantly remind it that disobedience means at least permanent entrapment on Material Plane, or straightforward destruction from your hands. The way I play it strongly favors making fair deals with outsiders rather than terrorizing them into service.
Regarding literature, I believe theire is a fair number of examples when a summoner thought itself safe from a demon he summoned only to be killed by it a moment later. Note also the following passages from the section on Binding Outsiders from Ultimate Magic:
When dealing with demons, it is best to remember that they abide by no contract other than power, and displaying power — or at least hints of it — is key to keeping them under control. (...)
While qlippoth may bargain with mortal spellcasters, they don’t feel bound to follow such agreements, and often blatantly disregard the orders of their binders, no matter the consequences. (...)
| pad300 |
Regarding literature, I believe theire is a fair number of examples when a summoner thought itself safe from a demon he summoned only to be killed by it a moment later.
To be blunt, bull. You are completely ignoring the context of such situations - generally such situations, either a) the summoner has failed to notice a loophole in his contracted task, or b) his summoning has been interrupted before a binding contract has been struck (for example, by something disrupting the containment diagram).
Further, IMO, you might as well just admit that you ban the spell in your campaign for players. All you have really done is written : "Use this spell and the GM will F' your character in the ass at his pleasure" on it. Players are not that dumb. Consider for example, your proposal of summoning a demon to kill the family of your enemy, why would the Demon not start ignoring you after killing the family of your enemy, just to kill more mortals, or turn on you for binding it...
Not to mention that your way of handling it contradicts a lot examples in published material - eg. the Planetar bound as a guard in Rise of the Runelords, or Pit Fiend dam gate control.
| Adjoint |
Further, IMO, you might as well just admit that you ban the spell in your campaign for players. All you have really done is written : "Use this spell and the GM will F' your character in the ass at his pleasure" on it. Players are not that dumb. Consider for example, your proposal of summoning a demon to kill the family of your enemy, why would the Demon not start ignoring you after killing the family of your enemy, just to kill more mortals, or turn on you for binding it...
Not to mention that your way of handling it contradicts a lot examples in published material - eg. the Planetar bound as a guard in Rise of the Runelords, or Pit Fiend dam gate control.
My players succesfully used Planar Binding with no ill effects, by appropriately rewarding called outsider when necessary. For example, when they called a shaitan to help them in an assault, they rewarded him with magic weapons; and when they called a lantorn archon and asked him to warn people of the country about an incoming invasion (using its greater teleport), it agreed easily as that was aligned with its own goals. In my experience, my approach stops the abuse, but does not stop players for using it when they need it.
Also, what I described before is just what Planar Binding spell does on its own. Nothing stops you from using Dominate Monster or Geas on a summoned outsider for a better effect. I allow for ways to force outsiders to obey, even orders against their nature, I just say that you need more than just Planar Biding for that.
You can think that's needlessly complicating things, but otherwise I find no explanation for the passages from UM I cited, that directly say that demons and qlippoth can ignore the contracts. Unless they are unique among outsiders, but I find no reason to assume that.
But in the end I don't intend to argue that those are rules as written. There are contradictions in published material regarding planar binding, it usually works the way the plot requires. I found that the approach I present works at my table - and as this is the Advice Forum, I see no reason not to share it.