Stealth for Initiative

[King of Vrock]

If you use Stealth for Init and your enemies beat your initiative with Perception are you seen or just sensed? How about if you're beaten by a skill other than Perception?

--Schoolhouse Vrock

[breithauptclan]

Uh, you are rolling for initiative. If they want to see or sense you, that takes a seek action. Which they can do on their turn once their turn comes up.

[Ghilteras]

Before rolling initiative you are in exploration mode so if you beat the opponent Perception DC (10+modifier) with your Stealth check you are unseen and there is no seek action. Why would anybody be actively seeking me if they are unaware of my presence?

What is not clear is whether you can attack directly or if you need to roll again for initiative when you are standing behind an unaware enemy ready to backstab him and whether beating their Perception DC is enough or if you need to roll again for Initiative before being able to attack.

Rolling again seems redundant. Think of a Rogue that beats the guard Perception and sneaks up behind him. Why does he have to roll again for initiative? And what if the guard beats this roll? The rogue is suddenly detected? So basically that would mean that rogues need to beat TWICE the perception of anybody to surprise them, once to move behind them and another one for initiative? It makes no sense, I'd rather give the rogue a free attack and then roll initiative, if the rogue beats it then it can attack twice against flat footed. I think RAW needs to clarify this asap.

[James Hebert]

I'm still unclear on this myself. Here's the breakdown:
- Goblins in room B overhear heroes in room A
- Goblins hide
- Heroes leave encounter mode and enter exploration mode
- Heroes engage in Searching tactics

Does the GM make the Stealth check against the Perception DC of the heroes?

Does the GM roll Stealth and secret Perception checks? Are these the initiative scores? If so, this is one Stealth check for multiple creatures since they use one roll for the entire group for initiative.

Does the GM roll secret Perception checks against a DC of 10 + The goblins' stealth modifier?

If some PCs are Sneaking instead of Searching, what happens then? Do the goblins roll Stealth and Perception, and if so, which is their initiative roll?

[DerNils]

In PF2, only the active Party ever rolls, in this case the adventurers that have Chosen a tactic.
As Seek is asking for a secret perception check, the GM rolls for the PC's that search. If they beat the Monsters stealth DC, they "Know something is off" and enter Encounter mode.

This is where things become undefined. But given that even the example for beating a traps DC does not actually identify the trap, the absolute maximum I would give them is a sensed enemy, if that. From then on it's initiative time.

I would actually like ambushes to work like complex hazards. If the PC's beat the Stealth DC, they avoid the free Action of the enemy, if they don't, the enemies get one defined reaction to the PC's entering their range, than it's initiative. But that is not supported by the rules as is, because readying an Action can be maintained for a Maximum of 10 minutes before being fatigued, and Exploration mode is for PC's, not Monsters.

[James Hebert]

That's good feedback: Ambushes as hazards.

The thing is, I don't want to go flipping through the rulebook right at the beginning of an encounter. I would like to see an easier transition from exploration into encounter without the PCs getting any kind of notice. It feels like it defeats the purpose of the secret rolls to tell them something is up. It takes the immersion right out of the situation, because as a player, you know what's coming, but as a character you're not so sure. I hope this is errata'd or at least clarified.

[orphias]

Huh, so if you don't use a Seek action to try and find someone that is Hiding, you automatically have no chance at all to notice them. hadn't realised that.
I thought that was what the whole Perception for initiative was all about. Damn. That makes ambushes even more likely. Being a PC sucks LOL