Simple change in armor; reduce it to two categories

[Igor Horvat]

IMHO, armor should only come in two categories(3 if you count unarmored)
Light and Heavy.

Also it needs to be little streamlined more.
No need for noisy or clumsy mechanics.

Light armor:

Padded armor, AC +1, max dex +6, ACP -0,
Leather armor, AC +2, max dex +5, ACP -1,
Hide armor, AC +3, max dex +4, ACP -2,

Heavy armor:

Chain shirt, AC +4, max dex +4, ACP -2, speed -5ft
Scale mail, AC +5, max dex +3, ACP -3, speed -5ft
Chain mail, AC +6, max dex +2, ACP -4, speed -5ft
half-plate, AC +7, max dex +1, ACP -5, speed -5ft
full-plate, AC +8, max dex +0, ACP -6, speed -5ft

Classes proficient in medium armor will be only proficient in light armor.
Can provide them with extra skill or two training for compensation.

[Ultimatecalibur]

That doesn't really help with the actual problems with armor in Pf2e.

Heavy Armors are still to penalized for the slight advantage they give to AC.
Armor choice is completely a factor of your dexterity bonus and anyone with an 18+ Dex would want a Chain Shirt (or one of the Light Armors if they do not want the speed penalty).

Armor needs a rework, but simplifying like you have done won't really fix things.

[Vidmaster7]

I'd be ok with just the two armor types. It makes the fighters armor mastery work better.

[Igor Horvat]

Ultimatecalibur wrote:

That doesn't really help with the actual problems with armor in Pf2e.

Heavy Armors are still to penalized for the slight advantage they give to AC.
Armor choice is completely a factor of your dexterity bonus and anyone with an 18+ Dex would want a Chain Shirt (or one of the Light Armors if they do not want the speed penalty).

Armor needs a rework, but simplifying like you have done won't really fix things.

They give +1 AC for -5ft speed. Not much speed reduction.

And they have ACP for not needing investment in dexterity.

If you dump dex then you either suffer AC penalty or movement skill penalties.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Igor Horvat wrote:

They give +1 AC for -5ft speed. Not much speed reduction.

Speed reductions are even worse in PF2e without ways to mitigate them. With 3 actions a -5 speed penalty becomes as -15 speed penalty

Quote:

And they have ACP for not needing investment in dexterity.

No, they have ACPs to penalize skill monkeys in heavier armor. They are an expanded version of the penalties Thieves and Bards got to their Thief Skills while wearing armor.

Quote:

If you dump dex then you either suffer AC penalty or movement skill penalties.

They are pretty much unneeded and an artifact from the incredibly poorly designed 3rd edition.

Max Dex bonuses, ACP and Arcane spell failure were added in order to get classes keep to their traditional armors.

[David knott 242]

I think this would be a great idea.

The elimination of medium armor worked fine in Starfinder, and I think it would work even better in PF2.

[Damanta]

That list almost makes sense. However still no reason for anyone to go above chain shirt.

In order to improve that, make sure the other armors are actually better.
To that end I propose the following:
Chain shirt, AC +4, max dex +4, ACP -2, speed -5ft
Scale mail, AC +5, max dex +3, ACP -3, speed -5ft, resistance: 5 piercing
Chain mail, AC +6, max dex +2, ACP -4, speed -5ft, resistance: 5 bludgeoning
half-plate, AC +7, max dex +1, ACP -5, speed -5ft, resistance: 5 slashing
full-plate, AC +8, max dex +0, ACP -6, speed -5ft, resistance: 5 slashing and piercing

Grey maiden plate which is currently AC +7, max dex 0 should become AC +8 max dex 1 and otherwise the same as the regular full-plate.

Edit:
And in order to keep those things relevant over the levels, the potency runes should be increasing that resistance. Potency 2 doubles the base, potency 4 quadruples. So resistance 10 when you have +2 armor and resistance 20 when you have +4 armor.

[Fuzzypaws]

While I'm not keen on DR from heavy armor, I think baking fortification in to heavy armor would work to make heavier armor actually attractive. On a crit against the person wearing the armor, the attacker has to make a Flat Check with a DC equal to the armor bonus; failing means the crit is reduced to a normal hit.

[master_marshmallow]

I like the concept.

[Shadrayl of the Mountain]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

While I'm not keen on DR from heavy armor, I think baking fortification in to heavy armor would work to make heavier armor actually attractive. On a crit against the person wearing the armor, the attacker has to make a Flat Check with a DC equal to the armor bonus; failing means the crit is reduced to a normal hit.

That seems like a nod to heavy armor that would make it feel like I'm getting something useful out of it. I approve.

[The Once and Future Kai]

Igor Horvat wrote:

IMHO, armor should only come in two categories(3 if you count unarmored) Light and Heavy.

In my experience, Medium Armor has always - except for Mithral Breastplate/Full Plate shenanigans - been a complete waste of a category in 3/3.5/PF1e. So I'm on board. Awhile ago I proposed Exotic Armor as a category and I'd still like to see that included.

Igor Horvat wrote:

Also it needs to be little streamlined more.

No need for noisy or clumsy mechanics.

Light armor:

Padded armor, AC +1, max dex +6, ACP -0,
Leather armor, AC +2, max dex +5, ACP -1,
Hide armor, AC +3, max dex +4, ACP -2,

Heavy armor:

Chain shirt, AC +4, max dex +4, ACP -2, speed -5ft
Scale mail, AC +5, max dex +3, ACP -3, speed -5ft
Chain mail, AC +6, max dex +2, ACP -4, speed -5ft
half-plate, AC +7, max dex +1, ACP -5, speed -5ft
full-plate, AC +8, max dex +0, ACP -6, speed -5ft

At first glance - I think these numbers and removing TAC is a good step. I'd need to analyze it more but as a first proposal it works.

[Lyee]

Sounds good. I've never once 'imagined a character wearing medium armour' as part of a story or fantasy. They just end up having it being mechancially efficient. Medium armour is an exceptionally boring and unevocative category.

[Cyrad]

I prefer three categories. I didn't like the two category system in Starfinder. I prefer granularity so there's greater differences between classes and characters.

[nick1wasd]

I wholly agree with your base statement, other than Chain Shirt being "heavy armor", because I think the whole point of just a chainmail shirt is that it stops you from getting stabbed in the gut, but the rest of you is both more agile AND exposed. Also this would making crafting with exotic materials a lot cleaner as well, since you just have "craft light" or "craft heavy" prices and DC increases and that's that. Also giving heavy armor a secondary benefit like fortification or DR would make it a lot better, because currently it's either: nothing, studded leather, or half-plate; and those aren't very interesting choices.

[RazarTuk]

Igor Horvat wrote:

half-plate, AC +7, max dex +1, ACP -5, speed -5ft
full-plate, AC +8, max dex +0, ACP -6, speed -5ft

Going to hijack this. I know that some of the fantasy armor tropes, like padded being the joke option and metals studs improving armor effectiveness, probably aren't going away any time soon. But this is one that does feel reasonable to complain about.

Half plate and full plate are the same thing.

The actual difference- the blacksmiths making half plate accepted the fact that there would be gaps, and just patched them with chain mail. Meanwhile, the blacksmiths making full plate worked to make the plates fit together as well as possible, to not have any unnecessary gaps. You know what we've called that since 3rd edition D&D? Masterwork. Full plate is literally just masterwork half plate. If you actually want something between chain and plate, use plated mail. (1e's splint)

And for anyone wondering: Yes, padded armor is going to be inferior when compared to metal or cuir bouilli. But you're still wearing 2 or 3 dozen layers of quilting. It's surprisingly effective in a pinch. (The actual joke option would be untreated leather, which is one step up from being on the skins team) Meanwhile, an armor that resembled studded leather did exist. But instead of being the equivalent of a kevlar biker jacket, the studs were actually holding metal sheets in place to line the inside. Brigandine was actually the equivalent of wearing a bulletproof vest under normal clothes, not the result of boiling leather to make it hard, then adding spikes to look tough.

[Elleth]

Igor Horvat wrote:

Also it needs to be little streamlined more.
No need for noisy or clumsy mechanics.

Conversely, while I'd happily see Noisy or Clumsy go, I think I like the idea somebody proposed of giving armours more traits, much like weapons.

In my view the weapon tweaks have been one of the coolest bits about the new system. It's the first time I've been properly excited about weaponry in a TTRPG beyond "this would look cool".

E.g. you could make full plate give a circumstance or item bonus against being shoved (and maybe have a chance to change certain types of damage from lethal to nonlethal), and unarmoured or light armour giving a small bonus to reflex saves or certain maneuvers.

You could even mimic the crit specs on weapons by giving armour effects against a critical miss (like a pronged set of armour giving you a chance to disarm as a reaction) or on a critical success for a save (e.g. unarmoured letting you Step after a critically successful reflex save).

[LordVanya]

Plus giving different kinds of armor more traits opens up the design space for a more varied selection.

As for the idea of removing medium armor as a category...
Wouldn't that diminish the tank role of the Paladin to some degree?
There is a point at which simplifying things takes away more than it gives.

[Fuzzypaws]

+1 for giving armor beneficial traits, so choosing your armor is a fun choice between positive effects and playstyles, rather than solely a dismaying choice between penalties and an exercise in determining what drawbacks you can accept.

Paladins shouldn't be locked into heavy armor either, nor should the tank role be locked behind an alignment and restriction based class.

[Megistone]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

+1 for giving armor beneficial traits, so choosing your armor is a fun choice between positive effects and playstyles, rather than solely a dismaying choice between penalties and an exercise in determining what drawbacks you can accept.

Paladins shouldn't be locked into heavy armor either, nor should the tank role be locked behind an alignment and restriction based class.

Agreed on everything!

[Claxon]

I still have the problem in general that everyone would likely end up in armor that has at least a +4 dex cap. With everyone getting 4 ability score increases at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 it's easy to start with 12 dex and want armor with a +4 dex cap at level 15.

The penalties you get from heavy armor don't really mitigate the "advantage" of not "requiring" dex, when boosting dex is trivially and easy when you get 4 ability stat increases every 5 levels. As you level up the game pushes you toward progressively lighter armor.

Higher armor proficiency is meaningless because you don't get higher AC, and the penalties from heavier armor aren't balanced out by the minute benefit of not enhancing dex.

Edit: Sorry if my thoughts are incomplete, I started this post several hours ago and didn't get to finish it at that time and was just able to finish it now.