Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I can't find in the rules where the various combat maneuver uses of Athletics that have the Attack trait cause the Athletics skill checks to be considered "Attack rolls".
This means:
While Athletics activities with the Attack trait contribute to the Multiple Attack Penalty, the Athletics checks made never suffer a penalty.
Maneuvers cannot benefit from bonuses to Attack Rolls, like Inspire Courage.
Maneuvers made with Finesse weapons (e.g. Rapier to take a Disarm action) cannot use their Dexterity bonus instead of Strength.
Maneuvers rarely suffer from penalties from Conditions (like Sluggish).
This doesn't make sense to me, it seems like it's unintended.
Disarm Activity p147:
Traits: Attack
Requirements You have at least one hand free. The target can’t be more than two sizes larger than you.
You try to knock something out of an opponent’s grasp. A Disarm attack requires you to roll an Athletics check against the opponent’s Reflex DC.
Success You weaken your opponent’s grasp on the item. Until the start of that creature’s turn, attempts to Disarm the opponent of that item get a +2 circumstance bonus.
Critical Success You knock the item out of the opponent’s grasp. It falls to the ground in the opponent’s space.
Critical Failure You lose your balance and become flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
Multiple Attack Penalty's definition implies that actions that have the Attack trait might be considered Attack rolls. It never actually states that though.
Multiple Attack Penalty p305:
Attacks are particularly strenuous and become less and less effective the more you use them during a single turn. The second time you use an attack action (anything with the attack trait) during your turn, you take a –5 penalty to your attack roll. On your third attack (and any
subsequent attacks if you have a way to take more) you take a –10 penalty. This penalty is called your multiple attack penalty. The multiple attack penalty applies only on your turn and resets at the end of your turn. Attacks you can make outside of your turn might include their own penalties.
But then the Disarm weapon trait implies that attack rolls and Athletics checks to disarm are two different things that need special handling.
Disarm Weapon Trait p415:
Disarm: You can use this weapon to Disarm with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls (if any) as a bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Disarm using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to treat it as a normal failure. On a critical success, you still need a free hand if you want to take the item.
I believe the attack trait makes it an attack roll. There are some rules that I have read that imply this (like the Wolf animal companion's trip ability) but I don't know where or if this is said in the rule book proper. I remember some designer saying this explicitly in the forums leading up to the playtest as well but I don't know if I'd be able to track that quote down.
The Attack trait on p.414 defines what is an attack and get the MAP. Anything with the Attack trait is considered an attack for purpose of MAP. So a Strike, Disarm, Trip, Shove, Grapple, etc.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
So any check made as part of an Activity that grants an Attack by the Attack trait, is considered an Attack Roll?
Why does the Disarm trait feel the need to call out that the item bonus from the weapon applies to the Disarm Athletics Check?
As a second question, this then should allow me to use my Dexterity instead of Strength with Disarm checks made with a Rapier? (because it has the Finesse trait?)
I guess so, and I think the callout is to Highlight how it works. Disarm is one of the things you more regularly do with a weapon. Or it could be a leftover.
I would love for combat maneuvers to not Count toward MAP. It would make combat so much more interesting if it was actually beneficial to you to swap an attack with a maneuver.
As is, even though improved, they are still rarely interesting vs. just kicking the **** out of your Opponent.
And as opposed to normal attacks they all have a harsh critfail condition, you will certainly not use them on iteratives as is. So you trade your best Chance at a crit vs. mostly an Action from your Opponent.
They have the Attack trait, this makes they susceptible to MAP
But you don't take your armor penalty in these checks!
"(Armor) Check Penalty
You take this untyped penalty to Strength-, Dexterity-,
and Constitution-based skill checks, except for those
that have the attack trait."
Because by default a disarm is done with a free hand instead of a weapon, since the disarm trait let's you use a weapon to instead, it specified that the weapons item bonus also applies.
