No more bonus speĺl slots for high INT / WIS / CHA


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells

Liberty's Edge

Am I reading the rules correctly? A first-level druid with WIS 18 has 2 first-level spell slots, the same as a druid with WIS 12?

Grand Lodge

Theconiel wrote:
Am I reading the rules correctly? A first-level druid with WIS 18 has 2 first-level spell slots, the same as a druid with WIS 12?

Yes.

They are trying to tone down casters both in power level AND in their versatility "always having the right solution"

Liberty's Edge

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Well, I guess if martials can't have nice things, casters shouldn't either.


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Theconiel wrote:
Well, I guess if martials can't have nice things, casters shouldn't either.

That's PF2 in a nutshell


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All casters get a spell pool equal to their spellcasting modifier. So you do get bonus spell points just not spell slots.

EDIT: So while both the Wis 18 and Wis 12 druid have the same number of slots the Wis 18 druid gets three more daily uses of their order power in adition to higher spell DCs.


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edduardco wrote:
Theconiel wrote:
Well, I guess if martials can't have nice things, casters shouldn't either.
That's PF2 in a nutshell

Whenever I see this, I get really disappointed. Not just because I generally play casters, but because it just seems counter-intuitive to a good game. I personally believe it's more important to bring the martials up to the level of casters rather than bring down the casters to the level of martials.

I guess there is a whole complaint about super-powered martials being comic book/cartoony/insert over-the-top shonen anime here, but I honestly don't get where people get that impression. If you look at mythology, it's martials who were the badasses.

Cu Chulainn had a battle frenzy so potent he could fight armies by himself. Lancelot had to disguise himself constantly or else no one would fight in him a joust. And when he did fight, he absolutely wrecked his competition.

Move over to sword and sorcery figures like Conan or Red Sonja you find the exact opposite of the "big dumb fighter." They were "barbarians" who still had a very good grasp of arms and armor, tactics, army composition. Conan was even a king for a while. Granted, he got bored of it pretty quickly, but he played the political game, kept the petty nobles in line, and when the chips were down, whipped out his sword and lead his armies personally.

Paizo should bring the power level down on wizards to a degree, but I think the better, and ultimately more fun decision, would be to bring the martials closer to their mythological inspirations.


Theconiel wrote:
Well, I guess if martials can't have nice things, casters shouldn't either.

Actually, it's the opposite.

It lest you play with your ability scores more.

in 3.5e/PF1 it was imperative to boost your casting stat anyway-anyhow.

Not for DC's but primary for bonus spell slots.

Now you can play buffer or choose non attack/non-save spells and be really usefull as you don't have to worry about losing power over not having best attack/DC

Also as Bardarok mentioned you do get spellpool based on spellcasting ability.


At low levels the spell point pool based on your casting ability is even more dramatic than bonus spells were in PF1.

Like a PF2 druid with 18 Wis can cast 2 level 1 spells, and also, let's say tempest surge, 4 times. A PF1 druid with 18 Wis would get 2 first level spells. Sure the 18 Wis in PF1 will get you a bonus 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell, but the 4 casts of tempest surge will always be heightened to your highest spell level, so instead of one spell of each of your first 4 levels, you can cast a 4th level spell 4 times.

I mean, a level 1 Cleric with 18 wis and 16 Charisma can cast 9 first level spells now!


PossibleCabbage said wrote:
I mean, a level 1 Cleric with 18 wis and 16 Charisma can cast 9 first level spells now!

He can cast 2 level 1 spells and 6x Heal/ Harm through channel energy = 8?

A Cleric in PF1e (20 Wis, 18 CHA) could cast 4 level 1 spells and channel energy 9 times (3 + CHA + 2 Extra Channel Feat) a day.


Repentia wrote:
PossibleCabbage said wrote:
I mean, a level 1 Cleric with 18 wis and 16 Charisma can cast 9 first level spells now!

He can cast 2 level 1 spells and 6x Heal/ Harm through channel energy = 8?

A Cleric in PF1e (20 Wis, 18 CHA) could cast 4 level 1 spells and channel energy 9 times (3 + CHA + 2 Extra Channel Feat) a day.

You are forgetting the domain power (Wis Bonus) times per day, so technically it's 2 1st level spells, +Heal/Harm 6 times per day, +4 uses of their domain power (which at first level, is set to 1st level). So it actually ends up with a first level Cleric casting 12 first level spells. Now while that may be 1 less first level spell per day then your PF1 example, considering the reduction in spells per day amongst all casters in PF2, I feel that Clerics suffered the least.

Also, unless your GM was being very generous with points for point buy, and you are willing to eat a lot of 7's in your other attributes, or you were the luckiest guy at the table, having a 20 Wisdom, and an 18 Charisma at level 1 was highly improbable in PF1. Having an 18 Wisdom and 16 Charisma in PF2 is simply a matter of player choice.


Igor Horvat wrote:
Theconiel wrote:
Well, I guess if martials can't have nice things, casters shouldn't either.

Actually, it's the opposite.

It lest you play with your ability scores more.

in 3.5e/PF1 it was imperative to boost your casting stat anyway-anyhow.

Not for DC's but primary for bonus spell slots.

Now you can play buffer or choose non attack/non-save spells and be really usefull as you don't have to worry about losing power over not having best attack/DC

Also as Bardarok mentioned you do get spellpool based on spellcasting ability.

I feel it's pretty even.

If you care about DCs, they're more important now, because of crits.

If you don't, spell slots in PF1 weren't super restrictive with low scores. I've played more than one caster who had the bare minimum (10+spell level) to cast and worked fine. (I don't think you even need that this time?)


The Sarcastic Sage said wrote:
You are forgetting the domain power (Wis Bonus) times per day, so technically it's 2 1st level spells, +Heal/Harm 6 times per day, +4 uses of their domain power (which at first level, is set to 1st level). So it actually ends up with a first level Cleric casting 12 first level spells. Now while that may be 1 less first level spell per day then your PF1 example, considering the reduction in spells per day amongst all casters in PF2, I feel that Clerics suffered the least.

You are forgetting that PF1e clerics have them too. They can use most of them WIS +3 times a day. So 12 against 21? ;-)

But i agree with you about the current state of the cleric. The class is clearly one of the most powerful at the moment.

The Sarcastic Sage said wrote:
Also, unless your GM was being very generous with points for point buy, and you are willing to eat a lot of 7's in your other attributes, or you were the luckiest guy at the table, having a 20 Wisdom, and an 18 Charisma at level 1 was highly improbable in PF1. Having an 18 Wisdom and 16 Charisma in PF2 is simply a matter of player choice.

Of course it is. So what?

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