Problems with starting equipment (Parts 2-6, but especially 4)

[tottreson]

PREFACE EDIT: I have not yet played many of these parts, the concerns listed here are from a theoretical/gamefeel standpoint.

The starting equipment guides for parts 2-6 seem.. off. I think I get what they intended to do by making it based primarily off a handful of different level items, but considering some items of the same level vary wildly in price -and- some item levels just don't provide very meaningful item choices depending on your class... I'm looking at part 4 for a monk and I can't find any great 7th level item choices. Bracers of armor (What I would hope would be my second best item after my handwraps) Have a weird gap where they leap up in item level so I either have to make them my singular 8th level item or underutilize one of my 5th level item slots.
and most of the level 7 items seem to be unique armor or weapons
I think it would make alot more sense to just give a gold total and restrict the max amount we could spend on a single item.

[Warmagon]

The suggestions are completely in line with the table for starting high level characters in the books. The table also specifically mentions permanent items, which narrows the go values considerably. And those treasure values seemed similar to, but kind of worse, the earned items for a level, which doesn't seem entirely inappropriate.

And personally I think it's way faster to go 'one of these, two of these, etc ' than spend to drop large amounts of free currency.

[tottreson]

Faster doesn't mean better. If I cared only about speed I would play a video game that totals it all for me. Basic subtraction does not daunt me. And even if they align with those guides I would argue those guides are oddly limiting and weird too for the same reasons.

[Zwordsman]

As mentioned elsewhere, the playtest has left out specific parts, class features, etc, that they don't feel need testing.
The playtest is designed to test very specific concepts and places within the system. and what is included, and set up is for expressing that.

Now. I have no clue what and why is where in all that...
but I do know they set things up for reasons.

If that helps at all.

[tottreson]

Zwordsman wrote:

Now. I have no clue what and why is where in all that...

but I do know they set things up for reasons.

Sure, but especially for that reason we must assume everything they have given to us is part of the test and something they desire our feedback on. And during character building being forced to choose a lower level option in most of my slots that say I should/could be getting a higher level item doesn't feel good in the least.

As I said: I haven't actually played it yet, and maybe the math somehow works out and these lists of leveled items somehow balances everyone in the party. Maybe Monks somehow become broken if they got to choose level appropriate items for all of their slots? I'm not sure about that off-hand, but it also seems like such an arcane thing for them to have already tested for internally that I don't think that's very probable. Warmagon's reaction I think spoke to why they did it this way. "It's faster/easier." But, that doesn't mean better.

[Doktor Weasel]

Warmagon wrote:

The suggestions are completely in line with the table for starting high level characters in the books. The table also specifically mentions permanent items, which narrows the go values considerably. And those treasure values seemed similar to, but kind of worse, the earned items for a level, which doesn't seem entirely inappropriate.

And personally I think it's way faster to go 'one of these, two of these, etc ' than spend to drop large amounts of free currency.

I've only created the fist and second characters, so I haven't gotten too far into this. But I certainly liked the items per level better than a big pile of cash. It was quick and easy. Also it feels a bit more natural to have a number of things of different level instead of feeling the incentive to buy one big-ticket item of higher level.

For example, my 4th level fighter took a +1 breastplate as his Level 3 item, A Expert Light Wooden Sturdy Shield and an expert longsword for the Level 2 items and a minor healing potion for the Level 1 item. If it was a big pile, I might have put most of the money towards a +1 weapon that likely would have been a bit unbalancing.

The one issue is for permanent Level 1 items. There really aren't many. I took a potion instead with my 1st level item, because the only real permanent 1st level item seems to be the Dull Gray Aeon Stone. Perhaps say that you can take that many Permanent items of a given level, and in place of a permanent item you can take a number of consumables. I'm not sure of the proper number. But that could potentially deal with the issue.

[Warmagon]

I can see why they don't have a favorable exchange rate for consumables, because in 1 shot type adventures going super heavy on one shot items tends to pay out better than having normal items. That's not necessarily something to encourage both overall, and when testing one off scenarios is a goal.

Quote:

As I said: I haven't actually played it yet, and maybe the math somehow works out and these lists of leveled items somehow balances everyone in the party. Maybe Monks somehow become broken if they got to choose level appropriate items for all of their slots? I'm not sure about that off-hand, but it also seems like such an arcane thing for them to have already tested for internally that I don't think that's very probable. Warmagon's reaction I think spoke to why they did it this way. "It's faster/easier." But, that doesn't mean better.

There's also the idea that a high level character comes from a low level character. A level 9 monk does not just appear with the stuff they'd want at level 9 - they were a level 6 monk who got some items while leveling, and then a level 7 character who won items, and so on. These items are not completely fungible, so they stick around.

And note that the table only does provide you with level appropriate items - that's why level 9 bottoms out with two fifth level items and some gold. They are not 'on level or above' items, but they are stuff in a range around your character level.

[Joana]

I agree with both Doktor Weasel and Warmagon.

Shopping for a high-level character with a big pot of money and a blank slate is a time-consuming, option-paralysis nightmare.

And a character created and outfitted at, say, level 9 is always going to be more powerful than one who started at level 1 and got there organically, who had to buy less powerful items and upgrade along the way.

[tottreson]

I understand where you're all coming from, but none of you have addressed my fundamental problem with the system:

The way this is laid out at higher levels I'm encountering many situations where an item relevant for my character is simply not available as an item I am being given. Besides a set of Master tools for Medicine there's no other 7th level Item that really appeals to my monk of that level. This means I have to choose an even lower level item than I should be getting there. This trend continues downwards when trying to pick out different things my character would actually want. This feels bad. It makes me feel that I am starting at a lower wealth than other classes that have better choices in these situations.

If they had cool meaningful choices for every class at every level of these choices I wouldn't be complaining.

To address the idea of option Paralysis:
You're still selecting a ton of items from a giant list. Now you're just deciding based on a different arbitrary number attached to the item (Level instead of price)

As for Doktor Weasel's complaint about spending all your money on one item:
My original proposal of limiting the price of any given object already solves this idea.

[Doktor Weasel]

I'm most of the way done with my third character. A 7th level Gnome Paladin. I'm starting to reevaluate my opinion. There's often few items available at a given level that really fit the character, and the list is full of consumables where it feels like a waste to take one. So I'm coming around to Tottreson's point of view. Maybe the level thing can be a guideline or use those as a limit of how many items of each level can be taken while still just giving money.

There's also a bit of a weird situation the way runes are handled. If you get a +1 weapon, there's little reason not to get a +1 Ghost Touch weapon because it's still just a level 4 weapon (unless it's a long term thing and you want to save that rune slot for something else). And it looks like lower level special materials don't add to price, so for the third part the paladin is taking a +1 disrupting silver glaive for a 5th level item. +1 disrupting is already 5th, and it looks like it's not extra to take silver. It's Ustalav, silver and disrupting will likely come in handy.

[Captain Morgan]

tottreson wrote:

PREFACE EDIT: I have not yet played many of these parts, the concerns listed here are from a theoretical/gamefeel standpoint.

The starting equipment guides for parts 2-6 seem.. off. I think I get what they intended to do by making it based primarily off a handful of different level items, but considering some items of the same level vary wildly in price -and- some item levels just don't provide very meaningful item choices depending on your class... I'm looking at part 4 for a monk and I can't find any great 7th level item choices. Bracers of armor (What I would hope would be my second best item after my handwraps) Have a weird gap where they leap up in item level so I either have to make them my singular 8th level item or underutilize one of my 5th level item slots.
and most of the level 7 items seem to be unique armor or weapons
I think it would make alot more sense to just give a gold total and restrict the max amount we could spend on a single item.

So in general, I think it is worth keeping in mind that "not enough items at a given level" is really easily solved by releasing more items, and doesn't necessarily mean that the system needs to change. The CRB will almost certainly have more items than the playtest, and splat books will add more later. I think identifying "dead levels" is important, as that tells Paizo what gaps to fill in. But some of them probably were filled and then got cut for space.

As to your specific example, a monk who specializes in Medicine has two options that immediately jump out at me for 7th level: Boots of Bounding and Healer's Gloves. Both of which are pretty decent picks. Actually the boots jumped out at me as a must have for a monk, TBH. This assumes you want to use your 8th level item for +2 handwraps instead of master wraps.

I get it being a bummer for you to not have the best bracers, but I think it is worth keeping in mind that your AC cap is only 1 point behind the cap for +2 light armor and your Touch AC cap is equal to the chain shirt and ahead of pretty much anything else. You're gonna have pretty rocking saves too because monk. If you took Crane Style, you should be looking pretty sweet.