I was looking over the PRD the other day and I just could not happen to realize that some skills didn't get combined like I thought they would.
First, Diplomacy and Bluff, these too just seem to overlap.
Second, Slight of Hand and Stealth also seem to overlap equally so.
Does anyone else find this strange? Were they consolidated in beta?
While there is some overlap in Diplomacy and Bluff, they oten apply to very different situations and characters.
You can be friendly and convincing without being good at lying.
You can be good at lying without being very friendly or diplomatic.
As for Stealth and Slight of Hand, Totally different uses.
Just beacuse I'm good at sticking to shadows and hunting quietly in the woods doesn;t mean I can palm a coin, pick a pocket, or perform parlor tricks.
Now, there are situations where Bluff OR Diplomacy will get you simialr results. And places where Stealth will help you get close enough to Sleight of Hand the guard's keys. But still, different skills.
(Where is Rope Use now, BTW?)
(Where is Rope Use now, BTW?)
Good Question.
I guess I can see, a little, the different uses between diplomacy and bluff. However the idea of stealth is moving with out being noticed, so that just seems to be completely covers slight of hand.
(Where is Rope Use now, BTW?)
Good Question.
I guess I can see, a little, the different uses between diplomacy and bluff. However the idea of stealth is moving with out being noticed, so that just seems to be completely covered in slight of hand.
Personally, I find that there are enough situations where Diplomacy doesn't fit (feinting in melee comes to mind) to motivate the existence of the Bluff skill.
I have more issues between Bluff and Perform (Acting)...
Personally, I find that there are enough situations where Diplomacy doesn't fit (feinting in melee comes to mind) to motivate the existence of the Bluff skill.(Where is Rope Use now, BTW?)
Good Question.
I guess I can see, a little, the different uses between diplomacy and bluff. However the idea of stealth is moving with out being noticed, so that just seems to be completely covered in slight of hand.
I sort of feel that function should be in slight of hand, and thus stealth, as that is what you are doing, but with the option of using Cha instead of Dex, as you are again trying to move with out being noticed. But that is my opinion.
While there is some overlap in Diplomacy and Bluff, they oten apply to very different situations and characters.
You can be friendly and convincing without being good at lying.
You can be good at lying without being very friendly or diplomatic.
As for Stealth and Slight of Hand, Totally different uses.
Just beacuse I'm good at sticking to shadows and hunting quietly in the woods doesn;t mean I can palm a coin, pick a pocket, or perform parlor tricks.
Now, there are situations where Bluff OR Diplomacy will get you simialr results. And places where Stealth will help you get close enough to Sleight of Hand the guard's keys. But still, different skills.
(Where is Rope Use now, BTW?)
That's honestly how it is at my table. Being able to walk quietly through the woods to hunt a deer and palming a card while trying to fool someone at 3 card Monte' are very distinct actions. A character can be good at moving silently without being trained in stage magic, and vice versa.
Rope Use skill is gone now... tieing up someone is now a part of the CMB/CMD mechanic.
I was looking over the PRD the other day and I just could not happen to realize that some skills didn't get combined like I thought they would.
First, Diplomacy and Bluff, these too just seem to overlap.
Second, Slight of Hand and Stealth also seem to overlap equally so.
Does anyone else find this strange? Were they consolidated in beta?
I don't find it strange.
Diplomacy and Bluff do not really belong together. One is persuasion and flattery, the other is lying through your teeth, half-truths, misdirection.
Sleight of Hand and Stealth is not the same, either. One is using deft fingers for a number of things, like picking pockets or performing feats of legerdemain, the other is avoiding notice on the whole.
There are some similarities, but I don't think they're enough. (I mean, if you broaden the skills enough you end up with 6 skills - one for each ability score)
Use rope saw a fitting and uncerimonious death. RIP.
The weirdest consolidation I think for me was Lingustics and Forgery. I can see some overlap I suppose - but learning a new language (or studying old ones) and creating official looking documentation seem like pretty different skills to me (I suppose you would get some practice with letterring or something with lingustics study - pretty small overlap IMO.)
However, from a game balance perspective, I have no problem with forgery getting swallowed up by another skill.
The skills I wish they had consolidated more are the knowledges. Couldn't knowledge (nobility) have been added in to Knowledge (local) or knowledge (history)? Maybe all 3 could have been put into one?
Perhaps Knowledge (architechture) could have been part of (Dungeoneering)?
Seems like those skills ended up a bit specific, considering Spot, Listen and Search all got mixed together.
Overall I'm happy with the new skills - but there's always room for improvement ;)
Overall I'm happy with the new skills - but there's always room for improvement ;)
In few years we have only one uber skill if "there's always room for improvement" ;)
One of the skill issues I have always had was Intimadate and Bluff. If you want to intimadate through force of personality, that should be a Cha based skill and be a bluff. But, you should be able to do it physically as well using a str check. As it satnds now, you can but it costs you a feat.
Use rope saw a fitting and uncerimonious death. RIP.
The weirdest consolidation I think for me was Lingustics and Forgery. I can see some overlap I suppose - but learning a new language (or studying old ones) and creating official looking documentation seem like pretty different skills to me (I suppose you would get some practice with letterring or something with lingustics study - pretty small overlap IMO.)
However, from a game balance perspective, I have no problem with forgery getting swallowed up by another skill.
The skills I wish they had consolidated more are the knowledges. Couldn't knowledge (nobility) have been added in to Knowledge (local) or knowledge (history)? Maybe all 3 could have been put into one?
Perhaps Knowledge (architechture) could have been part of (Dungeoneering)?
Seems like those skills ended up a bit specific, considering Spot, Listen and Search all got mixed together.
Overall I'm happy with the new skills - but there's always room for improvement ;)
Forgery works for me because Linguistics covers both spoken AND written work (translating ancient runes or scripts, for example)
As for the knowledges Nobility, Local, and History probably could get combined to a certain extent but it would start to impinge on Geography as well potentially with wrapping history and local in there so ultimately it is probably best they stay separate.
Dungeoneering in the sense it is usually used for is more like the underground version of knowledge (Nature) telling you about what's down there (Oozes and Aberrations) than it is the engineering of the place-actually maybe Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) should be combined into Knowledge (Exploration? Adventuring?)
The skills are looking good as is - you try to combine too much you get a reducto ad absurdum argument sooner or later.
Bluff is also a lot about body language and how you can control it IMO. That covers both hiding the truth from the others and feinting well and makes the skill different from the Dplomacy. It helps to perform Diplomacy and it could alo help with the perform skill, but acting on the other hand means that you know how to behave on the stage - not turning away from the spectators, using gestures and expressions that are understandable and easily visible without overacting, proper speech and remembering the text.
Stealth is about moving unnoticed, quite unlike the Sleight of Hand skill, which involves manual dexterity and is quite irrelevant to hiding in a bush.
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Personally, I would have prefered that the Jump skill had not been put in Acrobatics, but instead been put into another skill with Climb and Swim
Well, I'm sort of with you on this one. I like Jump in acrobatics, but I would prefer that Climb and Swim be lumped together into one skill... possibly with a skill mechanic that would also allow you to gain temporary boosts to speed while running (hard to do a chase with d20 rules and this would be the simplist way of doing just that). Call the whole thing Athletics.
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Back during the beta I was lobbying for Climb and Jump to be rolled into a single skill: Athletics. More strength related physical skills should have been rolled into a companion skill to Acrobatics. And Jump is about strength.
-Weylin
Dex is about movement, though, and so its nothing but a chicken wing with acrobatics. However, climb and swim should be rolled together IMO.
Perhaps knowledge Arcana or Spellcraft and Use Magic Device should've been lumped together as well following the same argument i'd use for Athletics... that I wouldn't buy though.
Bluff is also a lot about body language and how you can control it IMO. That covers both hiding the truth from the others and feinting well and makes the skill different from the Dplomacy. It helps to perform Diplomacy and it could also help with the perform skill (...)
True. I think that part of the confusion comes from the fact that a lot a 'real life' diplomats, union representatives and liaison agents would be using the Bluff skill just as much as the Diplomacy skill (if not more). In regards to this, it is a legitimate reason to question the necessity to have Diplomacy and Bluff be two separate skills as opposed to a single one bearing a different name (Persuasion?). I'm personally in favor of keeping both separate however...
One thing I don't like about the skill system is how skills are dependent on the player to distribute his points. With the disappearance of synergy bonuses (which I regret dearly), one can have a high Diplomacy score and a very low Bluff score. Actually, it is mechanically advantageous to pick one and leave the other unless you have enough points to invest significantly in both. With the exception of particular cases (the person who just can't lie, the salesperson who you can't trust but managed to sell you three vacuum cleaners), most people develop both skill simultaneously. Same for bluff and acting...
While I know that realism and gameplay don't always get along, I feel that skills should be a bit more synergistic than they are. The synergy bonuses provided some degree of realism there, and that's why I miss them.
Ideally, I wished that skills would have been kept separate but regrouped in few categories; each of these categories receiving a base skill bonus according to a good/poor progression (like saving throws). But I know that the point was to simplify things, not complicate them further...
'findel
One of the skill issues I have always had was Intimadate and Bluff. If you want to intimadate through force of personality, that should be a Cha based skill and be a bluff. But, you should be able to do it physically as well using a str check. As it satnds now, you can but it costs you a feat.
I think they did that one because so many people were talking about it.
It's a feat because you get to use two skills instead of one.
All in all I think it's best to keep the skills fixed to a certain ability score. The other option would be to keep it all open, like WoD does.
Use rope is gone, yet it is still there.
In combat, you use CMB/CMD.
If on a boat, use an applicable profession.
If climbing, well, you just use a climb check.
If trying to keep forest critters from getting to your stores of food, then it's a survival check.
And if it's throwing a grappling hook, then it's a ranged touch attack.
It seems to me there SHOULD be some slight skill overlap, as having totally discreet skill functions can create gaps whereby the party is lacking capability in a crucial area. I'm personally against house-ruling everything I dislike, but if it were a story-critical skill check, I'd probably allow an untrained Knowledge check above DC10 (though not above DC20, similar to non-rogues searching for traps). Sacrificing story on the altar of orthodoxy ain't my style.
On another note, the "trained only" label is a misnomer, as characters without (for example) Handle Animal can still handle animals to some degree (must be domestic, IIRC). Label-mechanics are helpful to some degree, but can really get in the way as well.
Zo
I've been going over the skills ever since Pathfinder brought up the idea of consolidation. So far I've been trying to bounce around some ideas:
Acrobatics - No jump. Using Dex to hop around is part of what makes Tumbling what it is, and is already covered. The Jump check is used for actual distance, and doesn't fit as a Dex skill unless you have some specific training to contort your body in a way that makes jumping work through agility rather than pumping your legs.
Plus, it already has Tumble and Balance checks, which is plenty to keep the skill useful.
Athletics (New Skill, Str based) - This is for Jump and Climb. I did not include Swim because of two reasons: climbing is something anyone that can walk on land can do... I just recently watched my 1 yr old learn to climb up on the sofa before he learned how to walk.
Swimming is a completely different method of movement through a new medium (water). Same with Fly (air). These are things that anyone could potentially not know unless they specifically trained in it. So swim and fly are kept as their own skills.
Combat Exploit (New Skill, Str based) - This is for combat maneuvers instead of making it based on BAB. It is opposed by either a touch AC + str, or a combat exploit/trick check.
This one is used for Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip.
Combat Trick (New Skill, Dex based) - This is for some combat maneuvers (Disarm, Grapple and Trip), as well as Feinting and creating a non-social diversion for hiding. A feat opens the other combat maneuvers to this one (so you can overrun or bullrush someone through technique and agility rather than brute force).
These two put into skills means that a person can have a medium or even lower BAB, but still be functionally capable of pulling off maneuvers. It makes Rogues and Monks (and eldritch knight, or any other non full BAB class combinations) competative in this specific way without having to resort to increasing BAB.
Deceive (Replaces Bluff) - Basically all the non-feinting rules of Bluff and Disguise and Innuendo and anything else you can think of that's "doing one thing when meaning another" in a social situation.
Because it's no longer about feinting, it's completely about how well you can hold back your 'tells' for lying.
Our bodies and brains act differently and respond to our attempts to lie. This skill is supposed to represent that. Which is why I feel it can be lumped with Disguise.
Feinting is "faking one direction when going another", and so is less about blushing when fibbing, and more about technique and movement reversals.
Creating a verbal distraction for hiding still fits, because they have to believe you when you make your "Is that a zepelin!?" exclamation. However, this is dependant on the creature understanding at least basic communication (gasping and pointing when facing an insect won't do anything... making a fake leap in one direction and then diving towards the creature's new blind spot before making a leap for cover is what Combat Trick is for).
Investigate (Replaces Search, Int based) - Basically perception checks done when methodically looking/listening/smelling/tasting/touching something. This is done to retain the Int-based check of "trying to find", rather than Wis-based check of simply noticing.
This requires an action to use, as opposed to being reactive.
Mechanics - This is a better name for lumping together Disable Device and Open Locks. I wanted to use this skill for more general uses, and it's easier to imagine creating a trap or impromptu locking mechanism with a Mechanics check, rather than a skill that has "disable" in the name.
Still Dex based. There's cases for both Int and Dex in disarming a bomb, but since Dex fits as well, and Int can simply be the knowledge brought on from spending ranks in the skill, I feel consolidating to Dex is fine.
Notice - This is the Wis based Perception checks, meant for "noticing" things, rather than specifically looking for them (a reaction, instead of spending an action to use it).
In my stealth based campaign setting, stealth gets a boost because Notice only tips off the person that "something" is there, and Investigate is required to know exactly what. They are no longer surprised, but don't know exactly what it is yet.
..
The rest would be like in Pathfinder (Stealth, Diplomacy having the Gather Information stuff, etc).
I did have some additional skills to add a few features, like Resolve (Wis) for doing some of the "ignore pain" stuff from Autohypnosis, and a Research (Int) skill for doing essentially a Gather Information check with written material (such as in a library), as well as creating new spells or magic items, etc.
The last thing I've been retooling is the Knowledge skills.
I've lumped history and nobility together because most of what nobility will let you know (lineage, heraldry, specific persons of mention) would be something historical anyways.
All skills that can be used to find out information about an area (arcane - magical, religion - religious locations, history - historical, etc), have penalties and bonuses based on how close you were to the region, and the likelyhood you'd have heard about it.
That way, a person who's lived in the area all his life will have an automatic +10 to his check, meaning he just "knows" some of the easy stuff, and has a good chance of knowing some of the obscure stuff.. without even putting ranks in the skill.
I think I lumped the parts of Geography in with Nature and Local, since it had barely any use on it's own, and it's current description could fit in those two anyways. I'd have to doublecheck though, because I'm not positive.
Some of the knowledge arcane "super benefits" were moved to Spellcraft (feels better as a general training skill check, and means that a cleric going with religion knowledge won't get jipped out of knowing a divine spell being cast on them, etc).
Added some additional effects to making Engineering useful (like shoring up/breaking down a door, wall, cave-in, etc, as well as seige engines, and whatnot).
Added the Knowledge Tactics so war-like characters can have a knowledge skill and become generals if they want. Also used to create ambushes, create difficult terrain or cover, or spot a likely-ambush area (like engineering and spotting a collapse).
Basically, the attempt is to make all knowledge skills have some use in-game for the points spent. Knowledge "basketweaving" can be fine for roleplaying, but all roleplaying being equal, it's not necessary as a skill to put points in (just say your character "knows a lot about baskets" and be done with it). Points should mean something when spent.
I've been going over the skills ever since Pathfinder brought up the idea of consolidation. So far I've been trying to bounce around some ideas:
Combat Exploit (New Skill, Str based) - This is for combat maneuvers instead of making it based on BAB. It is opposed by either a touch AC + str, or a combat exploit check.
This one is used for Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip.Combat Trick (New Skill, Dex based) - This is for some combat maneuvers (Disarm, Grapple and Trip), as well as Feinting and creating a non-social diversion for hiding. A feat opens the other combat maneuvers to this one (so you can overrun or bullrush someone through technique and agility rather than brute force).
These two put into skills means that a person can have a medium or even lower BAB, but still be functionally capable of pulling off maneuvers. It makes Rogues and Monks (and eldritch knight, or any other non full BAB class combinations) competative in this specific way without having to resort to increasing BAB.
...
Wouldn't it be a little broken or force characters with Combat Maneuver builds to sink all their ranks into these two? Just wanting to know how that would work out...
Oh, and since I've added a few skills for certain game mechanics (Combat Exploit/Trick), and made Knowledge skills a bit more useful overall, I've been looking at increasing skillpoints across the board.
Minimum being 4 per level, and I was thinking of adding a flat bonus at 1st level so people can get a number of 'background' or 'roleplaying' skills.
Pathfinder's change to ranks makes things easier, but the 4x at first level being gone means spreading your points across a number of skills is gone as well.
A flat starting bonus (say, of 3 or 5 points) can mean getting a few extra skills right at the start again, even if they aren't going to be maxed later.
Wouldn't it be a little broken or force characters with Combat Maneuver builds to sink all their ranks into these two? Just wanting to know how that would work out...
I was late in adding that extra bit in, see my above post. I've been seriously considering giving Fighters 6 skillpoints per level, since they have nearly no other options than combat stuff (no animal companions or spells or skillpoints, and the other two don't fit), so they *would* have the skillpoints for this option anyways.
Wouldn't it be a little broken or force characters with Combat Maneuver builds to sink all their ranks into these two? Just wanting to know how that would work out...I was late in adding that extra bit in, see my above post. I've been seriously considering giving Fighters 6 skillpoints per level, since they have nearly no other options than combat stuff (no animal companions or spells or skillpoints, and the other two don't fit), so they *would* have the skillpoints for this option anyways.
Maybe you could give the combat classes a bonus every X levels instead to split between the two? The same way rangers and monks get to choose between an assortment of feats? Or perhaps make a combat feat that add your hit dice worth of points to one of the skills?
Just ideas for balance. It may overpower the fighter to give them the extra skill points if they didn't use it for the two skills.
I personally love the one time +3 to class skills with ranks in it.