What is the point of using Acid Splash or Telekinetic Projectile over a better damage cantrip like Electric Arc, Produce Flame, or Ray of Frost?

[Colette Brunel]

What is the point of using Acid Splash or Telekinetic Projectile over a better damage cantrip like Electric Arc, Produce Flame, or Ray of Frost?

Acid Splash deals shabby damage, the splash never scales, and its persistent damage is outdone by Produce Flame. Telekinetic Projectile is not that spectacular in the damage department, and it targets regular AC rather than touch AC. That is bad, considering that targeting touch AC leads to easier critical hits.

Electric Arc targets two creatures, even if Reflex saving throws are less reliable than targeting touch AC. Produce Flame deals decent damage, and it is compatible with the goblin's Burn It. Ray of Frost is rock-solid for instant damage against touch AC, and it has range 60 feet.

It seems to me like no bard or cleric should ever invest in weapon attacks; it is too great a monetary investment, a two-hander prevents using a shield, and bards and clerics do not automatically progress their weapon proficiency. Bards and clerics may as well just gain Ray of Frost via an elf, gnome, or human ancestry feat and then drop it down as a bread-and-butter attack.

[Culach]

I agree on Acid Splash, it is suboptimal.

Telekinetic Projectile on the other hand does significant damage, 1d10 at level 1 (the highest damage of any cantrip), and the damage type changes based on what you throw with it. Carrying sharpened metal, needles and some rocks gives you great versatility.

It beats Acid Splash hands down, even with AS's persistent damage and roll vs TAC.

Electric Arc beats it in most cases, because it lacks the to hit roll and hits two enemies at once. However, saves can reduce the damage output significantly.

Produce Flame beats TKP because it has the roll vs TAC and a persistent effect, lasting longer than the Acid Splash effect. However, Fire and Cold will most likely still be the most resisted energy damage types in the game, so there may be situations where TKP is the better option.

Ray of Frost may have the advantage in rolling vs TAC, but the low damage and lack of persistent effect allow TKP to be its equal.

While rolling vs TAC does give the others an advantage, I suspect that the average spellslinger will not be as affected by this as you might think since most boost DEX to get higher ACs and rolls vs all ranged attacks.

[pauljathome]

Also, not all cantrips are on all spell lists.

So my bard doesn't have the option of Produce Flame

[Fumarole]

You might be fighting something vulnerable to acid, or something that can only be damaged by acid. Putting the mechanics aside, there are practically infinite flavor/roleplaying reasons to build your character in any way the rules allow. The only limit is your imagination.

[Colette Brunel]

Telekinetic Projectile dealing more damage soon gets outpaced by it not targeting TAC.

Ray of Frost actually has fairly good damage on top of its range; that makes it the bread-and-butter option for instant damage, now.

Cantrip access is fairly simple given ancestry feats, and ancestry feats generally are not that strong anyway, so you are not missing out on much.

[Cydeth]

I looked in the Bestiary, and though I didn't look for weakness to acid, I looked for swarms. All the swarms had no more than 15 HP, and had weakness 4 or 5 to AOE damage, so the 1 splash damage will take off a minimum of 1/3 the life of the swarms listed. Sure they're low-level swarms, but it's a bit better.

[Beefriedrice 2]

If you really really want to damage some gear acid does come with bonus denting possibilities:

From the Trait glossary:
Acid: Effects with this trait deal acid damage. An item with
Hardness 5 or lower takes 1 extra Dent from acid damage.
Creatures with this trait have a magical connection to acid.

[Joe Mucchiello]

Um, persistent damage on Acid Splash. You need to roll a 20 to stop that damage. That will melt you on a crit.

[Voss]

Beefriedrice 2 wrote:

If you really really want to damage some gear acid does come with bonus denting possibilities:

From the Trait glossary:
Acid: Effects with this trait deal acid damage. An item with
Hardness 5 or lower takes 1 extra Dent from acid damage.
Creatures with this trait have a magical connection to acid.

The trick here, barring a creature making a shield block, is finding a way to directly target an object, especially one carried or worn. I've been looking, and haven't yet.

Strike, for instance, must target a creature.

[Culach]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Telekinetic Projectile dealing more damage soon gets outpaced by it not targeting TAC.

Ray of Frost actually has fairly good damage on top of its range; that makes it the bread-and-butter option for instant damage, now.

Cantrip access is fairly simple given ancestry feats, and ancestry feats generally are not that strong anyway, so you are not missing out on much.

The thing to remember is that everyone is now a Full BAB unlike before, so I don't think you will find it falling off as fast as you think. You lose out on some Criticals, but with the new crit rules, I don't think you will lose as many as you might think.

Also, thanks to everyone for the corrections on Acid Splash.

So now it looks like:

-Acid Splash: Best for dealing with swarms, persistent damage, best for gear breaking. Ranged Touch. Neutralized by Acid Resistance.
-Electric Arc: Multiple targets, no attack roll. Reduced by saving throw, neutralized by Electricity Resistance.
-Produce Flame: highest persistent damage. Ranged Touch. Neutralized by Fire Resistance.
-Ray of Frost: Best Range. Ranged Touch. Neutralized by Cold Resistance.
-Telekinetic Projectile: Highest Damage, most flexible damage type, most options for getting around DR. Ranged Attack. Neutralized by DR.

here is how range and damage stacks up:

Acid Splash- 30' - 1d4 (1 persist)/1d4+mod (2 persist)/2d4+mod (3 persist)/3d4+mod (4 persist)/4d4+mod (5 persist)
Electric Arc- 30' - 1d6/1d6+mod/2d6+mod/3d6+mod/4d6+mod
Produce Flame- 30' - 1d4 (1d4 persist)/1d6+mod (1d4 persist)/2d6+mod (2d4 persist)/3d6+mod (3d4 persist)/4d6+mod (4d4 persist)
Ray of Frost- 60' - 1d8/1d8+mod/2d8+mod/3d8+mod/4d8+mod
Telekinetic Projectile-30' - 1d10/1d8+mod/2d10+mod/3d10+mod/4d10+mod

Looking at it now, I think they all have their uses and a wizard that lacks them is foolish, and I now see that neither Acid Splash nor Telekinetic Projectile is pointless, they just have different uses.

[Culach]

Something I just thought of.

TKP has a physical presence that the others lack. This can be exploited to give it greater versatility than might otherwise be obvious.

Example: A button on the other side of a small chasm extends a bridge. You could have a martial jump it using their athletics skill, or you could smack it with a rock. (for levers use Mage Hand)

Example: Standing outside a cave mouth and you want to keep the residents from following you too quickly, and you spot a nearby loose boulder. Throw it at the cave mouth and you have it blocked. (Note that TKP has no size limit and only requires the object to be loose and unattended.)

Just some ideas.