Stealth and Sneak Attack are somewhat confusing

[Martijn Van Alphen]

Sensed Condition = Enemies are flat-footed
Unseen Condition = Enemies are flat-footed
Sneak Attack = Extra damage vs flat-footed enemies

BUT, specifically the Sneak action for the Stealth skill (this is not mentioned anywhere else) states:

You can attempt to move to another place while becoming or staying unseen. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.)

The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DCs of creatures that you were sensed or unseen by at the start of your movement. You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement,
or as soon as you do anything other than Hide or Sneak. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action, activity, free action, or reaction without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check. If you speak or make a deliberate loud noise, you become sensed. If you do anything else, you become seen just before you act. For instance, if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flat-footed against that attack.

If you’re unseen by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature to see you (such as when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), you automatically treat the result of your d20 roll as a 20 against that creature on your checks to Sneak. You also continue to be unseen if you lose cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature. Acting to do something other than Hide or Sneak makes you sensed instead of seen. If a creature senses you via Seek, you must Sneak to become unseen by it again.

Success: You become unseen by the creature (or remain so) during your movement and remain unseen by the creature at the end of it.
Failure: You’re seen by the creature throughout your movement and remain so. If you’re invisible and were sensed by the creature, you’re still sensed throughout your movement and remain sensed, but you aren’t seen.

This is incredibly confusing:
1. You need to read entries in the Rogue chapter, skills chapter, playing the game (senses) chapter, AND conditions chapter to figure out how Sneak Attack should function.

2. Flat-footed yields a -2 AC, but as soon as you attack someone, they lose Flat-Footed.

3. The way I interpret this (but as I said, it is confusing) you need Invisibility, a Darkness effect, or something similar to be able to make a SNeak Attack from Stealth (none of which the Rogue gets).

Am I interpreting this correctly? Is this by design? If so, you get 1 Sneak Attack at the start of a fight. After that you MUST Flank to apply Sneak Attack damage on a Strike. This goes against the description stating that Rogues are intended for striking at targets at the back, at high value targets; you better stick with the Fighter if you want those Flanking situations, and the encounter better not start before you are in position, because your ambush cannot wait until round 2.

I am not saying this is wrong or unbalanced, but some clarifications and better wording is definitely warranted.

[Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!]

This is my main problem with the rule book at the moment. You have to go to a ton of places to figure out how anything works.
Trying to figure out how an alchemist crafts potions you have to refer to the alchemist class, feats, crafting skill, equipment chapter, section on resonance, and the daily prep section. Once you have done all this you then have to figure out how they throw them which requires almost as many references.

I was really excited to download the book this morning but that enthusiasm has been dimmed somewhat by how confusing this rule set turned out to be.

I am sure with experience this will be cleared up but, for the health of the game I sure hope the actual core rule book is a lot better put together than the current document.

[Cirithiel]

Martijn, You can also make a Sneak:Hide action if you have cover, making you only Sensed (setting you up for another sneak attack.) see p. 314 and p. 158.

As far as I can tell, this is equivalent to the previous rules. Is there any other Sneak Attack situation that the old rules allowed that doesn’t apply in the new? 9
(Did I miss something here?)

—————————

Hastur!, Yes, the rules are in different sections of the book. But it’s always been that way. Let me suggest that you were so familiar with the old rules that you ceased to notice this about the old Core Rulebook. (Example: what page in the Core Rulebook had the rules for invisibility?)

Its just not possible to print all applicable rules every time it might be needed. Should the rules for “unseen” belong with: Actions (Sneak/Hide), the Rogue class abilities (Sneak Attack), or with the Senses (vision/hearing) section? It’s a logistical nightmare (and a waste of ink) to put it in all three chapters, but the rules are relevant in all three situations.

[Martijn Van Alphen]

Cirithiel wrote:

Martijn, You can also make a Sneak:Hide action if you have cover, making you only Sensed (setting you up for another sneak attack.) see p. 314 and p. 158.

As far as I can tell, this is equivalent to the previous rules. Is there any other Sneak Attack situation that the old rules allowed that doesn’t apply in the new? 9
(Did I miss something here?)

—————————

Hastur!, Yes, the rules are in different sections of the book. But it’s always been that way. Let me suggest that you were so familiar with the old rules that you ceased to notice this about the old Core Rulebook. (Example: what page in the Core Rulebook had the rules for invisibility?)

The Hide action does not allow for movement (or indeed any action besides going from the Seen status to the Sensed status). In P1 rules, if you are in hiding, you can make a Stealth check to remain unseen as you charge at an enemy. This allows for the first attack to be a Sneak Attack. In P2 this is not possible. Btw, the way Sneak is written, it suggests that if you are Unseen or Sensed, your target loses Flat-Footed if you take any action besides Sneaking/Hiding (with a few mentioned exceptions).

[GuestEleven]

Your first attack wouldn't even get one sneak attack at the start of the fight. It says specifically that if you do any action that IS NOT hide or sneak you become seen just before the action, making them no longer flat footed, making them no longer susceptible to sneak attack.

This really burns me at all angles, not even just for rogues. Flat footed is irrefutably a combat-based condition. It doesn't have any application outside of combat. What is the point of the conditions making them vulnerable to an attack when they lose that vulnerability the exact second you attack?! It makes no sense.

[daedel, el azote]

Hiya!

My main problem with the rule for stealth/flat footed is that it's impossible to "surprise" an enemy that is unaware of you. Classical situation: you are hidden behind a tree or something else, and a couple of guards are chatting, unaware of you. You move, sorry, stride right to the back of one of them and surprise him. According to the rules, the guard is not flat-footed even if he was totally unaware of your presence.

I think rules should add that there are circumstances that would allow a target to remain flat-footed even if the attacker doesn't have cover or concealment. Per RAW, it's impossible for a not-rogue to "surprise" an enemy.

If I am wrong please correct me since this is my first attempt to understand the new Pathfinder rules.