OK, so I've been playing Starfinder for a few months now, and been enjoying it thoroughly - the group has a good dynamic, none of us are really feeling out of place or useless (even our Kasatha Ghost Operative Outlaw, who has a less than 50% average for actually hitting her targets in combat and takes it in good humour), and we're a few hundred XP from reaching 6th level. This prompted me to go back to looking over my Theme (I'm a Half-Elf Solarian Priest), which in turn got me thinking about future levels, and specifically about the nature of the Summon Creature spell.
Y'see, I've been playing a Knight of Sarenrae, which is basically a Solarian picking all Photon, all the time. I didn't even put Black Hole down on my character sheet, or how Graviton Attunement works. This is purely for character and flavour, just to nip any arguments in the bud there. Now I still wanted some stuff to reflect that this guy is pretty spiritual and favoured by Sarenrae (so glad they added a Feat for that in Pact Worlds), so I set my stat spread so that he'd hit WIS 15 by 5th level, meaning I could pick up Connection Inkling. Detect Affliction and Stabilise are my Cantrips, Mystic Cure is my Level 1 spell; we've got no dedicated healer in the group, so it's nice to have even a little HP boost. Nothing too out of the ordinary so far.
Now by 12th Level, the Priest Theme gives me access to another 1st Level Mystic spell, once per day. None of the other spells really leap out at me, and taking Mystic Cure again effectively just gives me one more use per day. Looking through the other books, I started reading up on Summon Creature spell, which would let me summon a single CR 1/3 Tiny Angel (amongst other things). By 12th Level, that's not the biggest deal ever - its application in combat is minimal, and short of using it as a trap tripper or recreating Pokemon battles (neither of which I feel my character would support) it doesn't seem terribly functional. But it did make me think of potential applications out of combat, namely the fact that it could possibly be a means of contact with Sarenrae (or any relevant deity for those also capable of summoning).
So communication in Starfinder is slow, comparative to many similar sci-fi settings, and intentionally so. However, the core rulebook mentions that some organisations use supernatural means of communication, such as summoning angels or devils to convey messages. Typically I'd envisioned that as some form of Planar Binding, but I'm curious whether people think it would be plausible to attempt a similar feat with Summon Creature. If so, it'd make the spell useful as a means, once per day, to reach out to my Goddess, either conveying news or warning if something majorly bad transpires. Nothing in the power says that creatures you summon, once returning to their own Plane, can't act on any instructions you might have given them, though certainly they would not be under the compulsion of your spell to do so.
In the case of the Level 1 version of the spell, there's certainly some issues - provided you can summon a creature from the desired Plane (in this case, an Angel), it still has a -3 INT, meaning complex instructions or details will likely pass it by. Even then, such an entity could still convey that bad juju is going down and maybe Sarenrae would like to send a few of her hench-Angels along to find out what's going down? There's also an argument that a low-tier Angelic being might struggle overcoming any form of hierarchy to ensure it reached an entity that could act on the conveyed information. This might be less of an impact for more Chaotic Gods, although equally trying to find any of those might prove more troublesome.
The main advantage is that, as a priest of their governing deity, I expect most Angels (especially low level ones) would consider a Level 12 Player Character to be a big enough deal to take seriously and try to help out however they can. Even if they can't reach Sarenrae herself, they might well be able to communicate to a suitably important Angel who in turn could send a vision to/manifest before an important member of the Church, thus conveying the intended message far quicker than conventional technology in the setting could accomplish.
What do you guys think? Do you think it could be used as a means of sending messages to the Plane of your chosen deity, and if so do you feel it would be a decent spell to take for that purpose, even as a once per day freebie?
My personal take is that you're not pulling an individual creature with the summon monster, like pathfinder. Instead I view it as pulling essence from a plane, and shaping it into an elemental embodiment of a creature from that plane. As such when the spell ends the summoned creature ceases to exist. So this wouldn't work in my game ATM.
I'm mostly taking this from the fact that summoned monsters are created from the elemental type then modified, though some actual monsters from the material plane are on the summoning list.
SirShua wrote: My personal take is that you're not pulling an individual creature with the summon monster, like pathfinder. Instead I view it as pulling essence from a plane, and shaping it into an elemental embodiment of a creature from that plane. As such when the spell ends the summoned creature ceases to exist. So this wouldn't work in my game ATM.
I'm mostly taking this from the fact that summoned monsters are created from the elemental type then modified, though some actual monsters from the material plane are on the summoning list.
I'd figured they'd approached Summon Monster that way so that they wouldn't have to include individual, fully-statted Angels/Archons/Demons etc. at each CR rating the spell is capable of summoning, which saved them dozens of pages to include other, new monsters or keep the page count to a sane level. Using an existing template and modifying it also helps with balance to ensure that whatever you Summon will have a rough degree of comparability, just with a few tweaks.
Still, in the specific case of how you approach the setting, yeah, it wouldn't work, but I'm running under the assumption that, as Pathfinder before it, you are summoning an actual entity native to said Plane, which upon dying or the duration of the spell ends will return to said Plane.
This leads to a secondary point - can you be selective in who you Summon? Can you choose to pick THAT particular Tiny Angel you summoned previously, and subsequently can you form a bond with such an individual? Classes like the Paladins of old had class features that had similar effects with their summoned mounts, but can spells achieve a similar thing, even if it requires roleplay and player-effort to achieve a similar level of bond (though not the mechanical effects)?
If your GM wants to include True Names into the setting, it is perfectly reasonable to say that you're summoning the same lil' angel cherub each time.
As long as the game effects are the same as summoning a tiny elemental with the "angel" graft, I see no reason to dictate how the GM roleplays it out.
Usually speaking, if someone wants to pass on a message to their Deity they just pray. That's kind of the point of praying.
Paladrone wrote: Usually speaking, if someone wants to pass on a message to their Deity they just pray. That's kind of the point of praying. True, but there's nothing that says praying has any actual means of reaching your deity as far as I am aware. Certainly given there's little evidence of them responding to such prayers that weren't made as part of a spell, you can pray for divine intervention, but unless you're doing something like Summon Creature, Planar Binding or similar spell, there is no means to ensure anything will happen. The GM might allow it in a plot-convenient moment, but I doubt many would want to set the precedent that simply praying to a God will guarantee that they will hear and respond in some fashion.
The purpose of suggesting taking Summon Creature, even as a 1st level spell, is to provide a mechanically suitable means of creating a messenger that can return to the Plane and, potentially, reach the desired deity or a suitably high-up force that you might not otherwise have the mechanical means to contact directly. Praying has no mechanics and no consistent results - I'm looking to see if people might agree that this method could produce more reliable result.
That's not to say praying has no purpose at all - praying is a tool in meditive focus, bolsters resolve, affirms the spirit and can calm the faithful. Sometimes, yes, the Gods may be listening, but in those times when you really, really want to make sure Sarenrae and her Church known about the swarm of Devourer Cultists coming to ravage Dawnshore, having a more reliable method of conveying that is good to have.
Dan of Hats wrote:
True, but there's nothing that says praying has any actual means of reaching your deity as far as I am aware. Certainly given there's little evidence of them responding to such prayers that weren't made as part of a spell, you can pray for divine intervention, but unless you're doing something like Summon Creature, Planar Binding or similar spell, there is no means to ensure anything will happen. The GM might allow it in a plot-convenient moment, but I doubt many would want to set the precedent that simply praying to a God will guarantee that they will hear and respond in some fashion.
What makes you think that sending cherub number 765748985743 to talk to Iomedea will get a a response quicker or more plausibly than prayer? There is nothing short of a miracle spell which will grant you miracles on demand.
I actually think Prayer has in a fictional setting a better chance of working than random summoned messenger spam. Gods are by definition somewhat aware of their worshippers particularly those who gain divine spells from them so they will be aware in some fashion of prayer and if it is important to their faith or portfolio will recognize it's significance and in all probability continue to do nothing after all the pc is their divine presence in the area and should resolve the problem.
In any case I work with the method that the Summon Monster line of spells creates a generic summoned creature and does not call one from heaven etc. If you want a specific called creature which may work as a messenger (and still produce no actually useful effect) you need the planar binding spells
Fundemenatlly as a GM my viewpoint is that nothing you are going to be able to do routinely will result in a Deux Ex Machina turning up to save the day and solve the plot if that worked there would be no need for heroic pc's as every time Joe Blogs standard worshiper was threatened he could call for divine intervention and make the universe safe and boring.
I tend to think that this *could* work, with a bunch of "buts". If you have an appropriate Summon Monster, yes, you are summoning an outsider who is part of a god's divine hierarchy. If its Summon Monster 1, that part is "dang close to the bottom of a very big pyramid". So, if your hoping to pass along a message quickly and efficiently, its not really going to happen until the higher level spells.
Think of it like this: are you going to get the ear of a CEO by sending a message along with one of the store clerks in their corporation?
JohnHawkins wrote: Dan of Hats wrote:
True, but there's nothing that says praying has any actual means of reaching your deity as far as I am aware. Certainly given there's little evidence of them responding to such prayers that weren't made as part of a spell, you can pray for divine intervention, but unless you're doing something like Summon Creature, Planar Binding or similar spell, there is no means to ensure anything will happen. The GM might allow it in a plot-convenient moment, but I doubt many would want to set the precedent that simply praying to a God will guarantee that they will hear and respond in some fashion.
What makes you think that sending cherub number 765748985743 to talk to Iomedea will get a a response quicker or more plausibly than prayer? There is nothing short of a miracle spell which will grant you miracles on demand.
I actually think Prayer has in a fictional setting a better chance of working than random summoned messenger spam. Gods are by definition somewhat aware of their worshippers particularly those who gain divine spells from them so they will be aware in some fashion of prayer and if it is important to their faith or portfolio will recognize it's significance and in all probability continue to do nothing after all the pc is their divine presence in the area and should resolve the problem.
In any case I work with the method that the Summon Monster line of spells creates a generic summoned creature and does not call one from heaven etc. If you want a specific called creature which may work as a messenger (and still produce no actually useful effect) you need the planar binding spells
Fundemenatlly as a GM my viewpoint is that nothing you are going to be able to do routinely will result in a Deux Ex Machina turning up to save the day and solve the plot if that worked there would be no need for heroic pc's as every time Joe Blogs standard worshiper was threatened he could call for divine intervention and make the universe safe and boring. I think there's a misunderstanding on your part that my intent is to have a big "Get me out of this problem" button by use of this spell. That is not my stated intention - I don't expect the GM to give me any sort of advantage for having used it, other than to alert others of possible danger.
As far as I am aware from the setting material, the Gods are not omniscient and are not aware of all actions taken by their followers at all times, even during prayer - if that is stated as being the case somewhere, then it is information I have been unaware of. If the GM decides that they wish the Gods to have that sort of ability, then great, in that circumstance this entire idea becomes needless, since praying will have the desired effect. However, my GM has not indicated to me that that is the case, so I was simply trying to find a useful means of conveying important information swiftly to relevant individuals (chiefly, in this case, my deity) in a setting where sending messages from unexplored regions of space can be extremely slow. Even should my Goddess be notified, I don't expect Sarenrae to solve the problem for me, but I certainly don't consider it beyond probability that she might alert her mortal followers in some fashion.
In short, I'm not looking for a Deus Ex Machina button, but rather method within my admittedly limited means to convey warnings that might save millions of lives, depending on the nature of the threat, how rapidly such word could be spread etc.
Metaphysician wrote: I tend to think that this *could* work, with a bunch of "buts". If you have an appropriate Summon Monster, yes, you are summoning an outsider who is part of a god's divine hierarchy. If its Summon Monster 1, that part is "dang close to the bottom of a very big pyramid". So, if your hoping to pass along a message quickly and efficiently, its not really going to happen until the higher level spells.
Think of it like this: are you going to get the ear of a CEO by sending a message along with one of the store clerks in their corporation?
I appreciate that it's not likely to be an immediate thing for a minor Angel to get word to a being higher up on the totem pole to actually act in any meaningful way upon the information, but I'd still take it over how long it would likely take a message sent via conventional methods. There's also an advantage that, being beings of innate goodness, Angels are much more likely to inherently trust the information and, if it were to the benefit of others, seek to act upon it - if we were talking about Demons, things would be very different.
Dan of Hats wrote: Paladrone wrote: Usually speaking, if someone wants to pass on a message to their Deity they just pray. That's kind of the point of praying. True, but there's nothing that says praying has any actual means of reaching your deity as far as I am aware. Problem is, Summon Creature doesn't say that either. So either way you're outside of the rules and depending on your GM/deity being nice to you.
Anyway, I agree with SirShua's take on the mechanics. Summoning in SF is closer to pulling planar energy and then shaping it into a generic denizen of that plane, than it is calling 1-800-AZATA and getting a specific being while they're in the shower or whatnot. That's closer to how Calling works (specifically, Planar Binding) than Summon Creature. It's also why called creatures can actually die, because they're actually here unlike summons.
Psyren wrote: Dan of Hats wrote: Paladrone wrote: Usually speaking, if someone wants to pass on a message to their Deity they just pray. That's kind of the point of praying. True, but there's nothing that says praying has any actual means of reaching your deity as far as I am aware. Problem is, Summon Creature doesn't say that either. So either way you're outside of the rules and depending on your GM/deity being nice to you.
Anyway, I agree with SirShua's take on the mechanics. Summoning in SF is closer to pulling planar energy and then shaping it into a generic denizen of that plane, than it is calling 1-800-AZATA and getting a specific being while they're in the shower or whatnot. That's closer to how Calling works (specifically, Planar Binding) than Summon Creature. It's also why called creatures can actually die, because they're actually here unlike summons. The summonable skittermander particularly highlights this; it gains a planar based template which implies you are forming a skittermander out of the astral plane instead of you know, kidnapping a literal baby (in the case of whelps) and forcing it into a potentially fatal situation.
The summon spell raises weird questions if it is actually summoning a creature from its native environment XD
I once had a character make friends with a summoned Lillend and eventually used Planar Ally for a longer-term relationship.
On page 270 of the CRB, it says that creatures that are summoned come from somewhere and they return when the spell is done. Even if the creature dies, it will reform in 24 hours.
So, I guess that you either summon deceased baby ghosts or you summon living ones and make them ghost-like. Neither option is particularly moral, but, if the second one is true, I imagine there are some skittermanders with very interesting backstories... and some with ptsd.
I once had a group of players surrounded by guards while trying to stage a coup to overthrow a tyrant king. Previously they had uncovered the haft of what appeared to be a mace that had divine origins. Upon the BBEG surrounding the party with his corrupt guards, the Inquisitor prayed to the haft and to the god that made it in a desperate attempt to save his comrades. Out of character i asked him how serious he was in his plea, and asked if he would like to sacrifice his remaining spells per day to make it heard. The player immediately agreed and had his prayer heard by the creator of the weapon. Unknown to the players, the mace's original owner and creator was none other than Asmodeus himself. In response, Asmodeus sent an Image of himself to fight in his stead wielding the now repaired mace. The players were horrified and regreted it immediately. As payment for his services, the Inquisitor had to torture the other players in a demiplane for a few days. They got to keep the mace though.
|
