So I'm making a Human Ninja for an upcoming campaign I'm doing with some friends via Roll20. Due to being inspired by For Honor I'm making said Ninja focused on the double-chained kama, and because of that and its versatility I'm primarily looking to focus on TWF and combat maneuvers, specifically trip and to a lesser extent feint.
However because of character story design (and general interest), I'm looking to take the Racial Heritage feat and pick Tengu, allowing me to pick racial feats like Tengu Wings, Tengu Raven Form, Lovable Scoundrel, and etc. But because of all of this I'm a little constrained on feats, and while I know I can easily get the combat feats I need in a timely manner via Combat Trick, I at the same time don't want to use almost all of my Ninja Tricks just on combat feats- a guy wants invisibility and smoke bombs, y'know?
Would anyone care to share some build advice, and maybe some ideas on wondrous items for down the road? I already know about the Ring of Ki Mastery, but few others really seem to cater to the Ninja.
To cover potential important details:
-I traded the Human "Bonus Feat" for "Adopted Parentage", which gave me swordtrained from Tengu, which I then opted to exchange for exotic weapon training- hence how I can use the double-chained kama when Ninja (somehow) aren't proficient with them. The GM said he'd be fine just giving me proficiency with the double-chained kama (so yes, typing this out I probably have overthought it or tried too hard), but I wanted to limit personal homebrew/houseruling on my part and try to keep it as mechanically legitimate as possible. If there's some errata or official reason I could get the double-chained kama proficiency as the GM offered, please tell me.
-I traded out the "Skilled" racial trait for "Dimdweller", because bonuses to Perception and Stealth in darkness along with Darkvision is too good to pass up for a friggin Ninja.
-I've taken Two-Weapon Fighting as my 1st level feat.
--Speaking of, campaign is starting at level 1.
-As a result of Adopted Parentage -> Exotic Weapon Training, my character is also proficient in Double-Chained Kama, Tonfa, Tube Arrow Shooter, and Poisoned Sand Tube on top of normal Ninja proficiency.
-My stats before applying racial bonus are rolled, and are 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10.
-Due to there already being 2-3 people focused on having high Dex, I opted to focus on Str first and Dex second rather than the usual opposite.
--Thus I have STR 18, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 12 (racial bonus here), WIS 14, CHA 15.
-I'm starting with 110 gold (rolled and rolled badly, bleh), but I feel like I've covered my essentials pretty well.
-Character alignment is Lawful Neutral.
Okay, that should be all the important information out of the way. If anyone can give me some advice on how I can build this, that would be amazing. I'm not looking to min-max and steamroll everything, but I do wanna make sure I can keep up with the party while building how I want to. Hopefully some people can give me some input.
Much appreciated, and thank you!
Yeah, you don't really have enough feats. If you want to trip there's at least 3 feats or 2 & a ninja trick wanted, feinting needs at least 1 preferably 2 on top of that, and you apparently want to spend 4 feats on racial heritage & tengu feats. Plus TWF & later improved TWF, and invisibility, and smoke bombs. Lets see what the fastest you could get all those might be.
1: Racial heritage, TWF
NT2: Vanishing trick
3: Combat expertise (dirty fighting isn't an option for feinting - you'll need at least 13 Int)
NT4: Combat trick (two-weapon feint)
5: Tengu wings
NT6: Rogue talent (unbalancing trick)
7: Tengu raven form
NT8: Smoke bomb
9: Improved TWF
Adv. NT10: Invisible blade
11: Greater trip
Adv. NT12: Feat (improved two-weapon feint)
13: Lovable scoundrel
You could mess with the order a bit but all the stuff you want is filling up every feat and ninja trick until at least level 14. Many of the things you've named could take up even more feats or ninja tricks too.
With the training weapon enchantment you might be a feat further along - you could get a +1 training (greater trip) double chained kama for example - but I'm sure there are other weapon enchantments you'd like too.
Really, Dirty Fighting doesn't work with Feinting? Man that's really annoying to learn, especially because feinting seems like it would be such an absolutely spectacular option for a Ninja (or Rogue, or Slayer, or anyone with some type of sneak attack). If that's really how things are going to turn out then I suppose I could give up on Improved Feint; to be honest that's only about as far as I was going to take it, given a successful feint is essentially a free sneak attack. Given the double-chained kama has reach, it'll be a lot easier for me to flank so I suppose I can settle for that.
I will say though, learning about that Unbalancing Trick (good lord I need to do more thorough reading) is absolutely amazing. I was under the impression that Dirty Fighting was the best I was going to get, and was honestly more or less okay with that. But now that I know about Unbalancing Trick that actually frees up not one but two feats.
Given you've put taking both Racial Heritage and TWF down, I take that as an implicit suggestion I should take my GM's offer of the free double-chained kama proficiency? Because I will admit, while I was struggling to come up with additional picks for exotic weapon training, I have become interested in using the poisoned sand tube and tube arrow shooter. Some long-range/AoE poisoning seems deviously fun.
Something else I feel I should mention is that due to story reasons (namely the character not being aware he's got Tengu heritage), I'm not opposed to taking Racial Heritage later than level 1 (and thus Tengu Wings/Tengu Raven Form at later levels), and as interesting as it is I'm not downright married to Tengu Raven Form; Lovable Scoundrel and Scavenger's Eye seem more mundanely/generally useful for a Ninja.
Though it would be a serious pain to build for- requiring I mix around my scores again- a little part of me is considering the reverse; focusing on feints with a side of tripping enemies. There's also the fact that given I'm putting a bit more emphasis on Str rather than Dex, I'm also going to need to take Double Slice to get the most out of my damage.
It's admittedly a mixed bag given I can't use Dirty Fighting to cover Improved Feint, but I'm actually rather happy with the information this has given me so far. Thanks! Anything else to add?
I don't have amazingly cunning ideas as to how to legalise proficiency in double-chained kama, but even if you don't like your GM's offer you could use a kusarigama (which ninjas do get proficiency in.) Or a couple of daggers, or whatever.
You'll note I didn't put improved feint in that plan. For someone using TWF, two-weapon feint is usually better and improved two-weapon feint is definitely better.
Since you are wielding a double weapon it is a bit fiddly to get it enchanted. Downside is the one weapon needs 2 separate enchantments. But since your so feat starved you could change that into a positive. Get the double-chained kama made into a +1 training weapon x2. I'd suggest 2 feats that you'll use with this weapon since you only have access to them while you hold this weapon. Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Feint seem like good targets for the Training enchantment. Just remember you can't use the feats from Training as prerequisits for other feats. They need to be capstones in your feat chains.
Well like I said, after learning that it's going to cost me so much and I can't take Dirty Fighting to cover it all, I'm not necessarily married to the idea of expanding on feinting. To be honest I'm not exactly huge on ITWF either, but that might be my lack of experience at playing around 10th level- none of my Pathfinder campaigns have so far properly gotten past 5th level, and the only time I've gotten beyond that is a 5e campaign at 7th-8th level. Right now the "capstones" for me regarding TWF are Double-Slice and Two-Weapon Rend.
I'm actually happen to learn that the double feature applies with enhancements as well; it means if I wanna get really cheesy or just go for fun/dramatics, I can get Flaming on one and Freezing on the other. Played out as all hell, but undeniably appealing for the awesome factor haha.
I don't have amazingly cunning ideas as to how to legalise proficiency in double-chained kama, but even if you don't like your GM's offer you could use a kusarigama (which ninjas do get proficiency in.) Or a couple of daggers, or whatever.
You'll note I didn't put improved feint in that plan. For someone using TWF, two-weapon feint is usually better and improved two-weapon feint is definitely better.
I'm kind of attached to the double-chained kama, partly for the balanced 1d6/1d6 damage compared to the 1d3/1d6 of the kusarigama, and twin daggers... well, that's just been done to death, undeath, resurrected, then done to death again.
Looking at them on the d20srd, I honestly have to ask; what's the difference between Two-Weapon Feint and the Improved version? Aside from
"f you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn." there seems to be no difference whatsoever. So it feels like I'm missing something.
The improved two-weapon feint applies to all attacks until your next turn but the normal two-weapon feint only applies to the very next attack. It's the part you quoted, basically. The difference between sneak attacking once or sneak attacking three times in a round if you have improved two-weapon fighting.
The improved two-weapon feint applies to all attacks until your next turn but the normal two-weapon feint only applies to the very next attack. It's the part you quoted, basically. The difference between sneak attacking once or sneak attacking three times in a round if you have improved two-weapon fighting.
Might not have been your intent, but you're really making the case for me to focus much more heavily on feinting my opponents out rather than tripping them up. Though with the Unbalancing Trick you showed me saving me feat space and Greater Trip provoking AoO, I suppose it's a difference of whether I want set myself up to do more damage, or if I want to make the enemy easier to hit for my party overall.
Of course, ITWFighting and ITWFeint both require some very heavy feat investment. And like I said my post above, I'm not sure how far I want to invest in that overall. I also notice you didn't mention Double-Slice or Two-Weapon Rend; anything wrong with those when I'm putting a higher emphasis on Str?
I'm also considering the fact that I don't want to be a complete and total murder hobo, who can only solve things or contribute via killing. So some utility feats are also things I have to consider room for. Granted given the 8/lv skill points a Ninja gets, I don't have to worry about it too much I know.
Combat Reflexes. You have reach, use it.
I don't have a problem with feinting. It won't work on everything but it's a reasonably feat-efficient means of getting your sneak attack to work. It's also thematic.
TWF is effective when you're sneak attacking, but when you can't do so your attack bonus will be a little low. In that situation you might be better to use your weapon two-handed (you can do this with double weapons) rather than as two weapons. Feats which give extra damage only when using TWF won't help then, and they're largely superfluous when you're doing your sneak attack + TWF blender.
Tripping can be good but it doesn't directly set up sneak attack (it can make setting up flanking easier), it works on less enemies than feinting does, and trying to fix that will take more feats/tricks/talents than your ninja can afford. It'd have to be the main focus of your character's feats to be both good and reliable. I think you need to drop something to make this character work and trip should be it.
Combat Reflexes. You have reach, use it.
Not if you use DCK as a double weapon you don't.
Combat Reflexes. You have reach, use it.
Certainly considering it, that's for sure. But I'm already feat-starved as it is.
I don't have a problem with feinting. It won't work on everything but it's a reasonably feat-efficient means of getting your sneak attack to work. It's also thematic.TWF is effective when you're sneak attacking, but when you can't do so your attack bonus will be a little low. In that situation you might be better to use your weapon two-handed (you can do this with double weapons) rather than as two weapons. Feats which give extra damage only when using TWF won't help then, and they're largely superfluous when you're doing your sneak attack + TWF blender.
Tripping can be good but it doesn't directly set up sneak attack (it can make setting up flanking easier), it works on less enemies than feinting does, and trying to fix that will take more feats/tricks/talents than your ninja can afford. It'd have to be the main focus of your character's feats to be both good and reliable. I think you need to drop something to make this character work and trip should be it.
I'm not sure I can two-hand the double-chained kama the same way one might a greatsword. Though I will say, part of the reason I'm going with the double-chained kama is because of their immense versatility, what with having trip and reach essentially on demand. Hell, because of the reach I think I can trip people up without provoking AoO, feat or no feat.
I probably am trying to do too many things with my Ninja- TWF/Trip/Feint/Poison/Stealth/Racial/Utility is probably a tall order to fit into even a Fighter or a Monk, much less a Ninja. I do still want to explore all my options even there aren't a lot, just so I can be informed. Unbalancing Trick into the feat Fury's Fall (Str+Dex to CMB for trips) seems like it could be really effective.
Not if you use DCK as a double weapon you don't.
Is that really the case? Because the way it's written seems to imply that how you handle it can be switched up on the fly. It's honestly part of what makes the DCK so appealing to me- besides the For Honor vibes- because it means I can threaten and trip with reach without getting f**+ed over if someone gets close. At the very least, the Kusarigama seems to operate on such a principle.
The double chained Kama is actually horrible written and doesn't really state how it works or whether changing modes even takes an action. Even if changing "modes" is a free action, the question is whether or not you can do it when its not your turn.
You threaten at 10ft with it like a reach weapon when you wield it like a reach weapon. When wielding a weapon with reach, you don't threaten adjacent targets. Assuming a generous ruling of "changing stances is a free action you can do on your turn" then you are stuck threatening at either 10ft or 5ft during opponents turns but can swap back and forth during your own turn.
In regards to Feinting, Equipment Trick: Smokestick is a super solid feat for feinting (It allows you to feint as a swift action at the cost of just two feats: Improved Feint and Equipment Trick). Tripping, meanwhile, is quite a bit easier to do since the only downside to Tripping without a feat is provoking an attack of opportunity.
The only downside to tripping (compared to Feinting which is easy for a Ninja) is that Tripping uses your BAB and Ninja's kinda suffer in that department. Its STILL a useful trick to keep in your book, especially since you can use your Double Chained Kama to attempt a trip with your weapon's bonuses to hit (such as masterwork, flanking, and etc). Its a nice trick to have, and its well worth attempting against low CMD targets. However, you could easily invest your entire career into tripping.
Feinting has its own downsides, as you take massive penalties vs non-human and stupid creatures. Then again, tripping also takes a huge penalty vs multilegged creatures so there is that to consider.
Have you considered taking a dip into another class to help out with these feats requirements? A level of UC Scaled Fist Monk would let you grab Combat Reflexes, Flurry of Blows (A free attack with a Monk weapon that doesn't require Two Weapon Fighting) Proficiency in Double Chained Kama (Giving you back your Human bonus feat) and get Cha to AC/CMD. Alternatively, the Sage Councilor gives you flurry of blows, Wisdom to AC/CMD, Combat Expertise, and it removes the int requirement for any feat that has Combat Expertise as a prereq (allowing you to change your stat line up).
Plus, you get a 1/day Stunning Fist that (if successful) allows you to sneak attack on your second hit for free. You also gain free Unarmed Strikes with any part of your body, meaning even if your GM is a jerk and doesn't let you switch up your Kama stance freely you can still kick anyone who gets within 5ft.
Its better to take this dip at level 2, so you maintain your Favored Class Bonus for ninja.
The double chained Kama is actually horrible written and doesn't really state how it works or whether changing modes even takes an action. Even if changing "modes" is a free action, the question is whether or not you can do it when its not your turn.
You threaten at 10ft with it like a reach weapon when you wield it like a reach weapon. When wielding a weapon with reach, you don't threaten adjacent targets. Assuming a generous ruling of "changing stances is a free action you can do on your turn" then you are stuck threatening at either 10ft or 5ft during opponents turns but can swap back and forth during your own turn.
In regards to Feinting, Equipment Trick: Smokestick is a super solid feat for feinting (It allows you to feint as a swift action at the cost of just two feats: Improved Feint and Equipment Trick). Tripping, meanwhile, is quite a bit easier to do since the only downside to Tripping without a feat is provoking an attack of opportunity.
The only downside to tripping (compared to Feinting which is easy for a Ninja) is that Tripping uses your BAB and Ninja's kinda suffer in that department. Its STILL a useful trick to keep in your book, especially since you can use your Double Chained Kama to attempt a trip with your weapon's bonuses to hit (such as masterwork, flanking, and etc). Its a nice trick to have, and its well worth attempting against low CMD targets. However, you could easily invest your entire career into tripping.
Feinting has its own downsides, as you take massive penalties vs non-human and stupid creatures. Then again, tripping also takes a huge penalty vs multilegged creatures so there is that to consider.
Have you considered taking a dip into another class to help out with these feats requirements? A level of UC Scaled Fist Monk would let you grab Combat Reflexes, Flurry of Blows (A free attack with a Monk weapon that doesn't require Two Weapon Fighting) Proficiency in Double Chained Kama (Giving you back your Human bonus feat) and get Cha to AC/CMD. Alternatively, the Sage Councilor gives you flurry of blows, Wisdom to AC/CMD, Combat Expertise, and it removes the int requirement for any feat that has Combat Expertise as a prereq (allowing you to change your stat line up).
Plus, you get a 1/day Stunning Fist that (if successful) allows you to sneak attack on your second hit for free. You also gain free Unarmed Strikes with any part of your body, meaning even if your GM is a jerk and doesn't let you switch up your Kama stance freely you can still kick anyone who gets within 5ft.
Its better to take this dip at level 2, so you maintain your Favored Class Bonus for ninja.
Can agree with the double-chained kama being pretty vague and poorly worded. It's described as being used to disarm at range, but no word on whether it gets the disarm weapon feature (I'm assuming not ATM). But given it says you can pull the weapon back if dropped as a free action via the chain, I assume that it can be used to attack at both 5ft and 10ft more or less at-will. Which is probably stupid strong given it negates the biggest downside to a reach weapon and means downright insane versatility, but it's also an exotic that only one class normally gets non-feat access to.
Unfortunately for the Equipment Trick you mentioned, it requires having a smokestick held in one hand. The double-chained kama is a two-handed weapon, meaning that wouldn't work out. Part of what really has me attached to using tripping is the Unbalancing Trick that was pointed out to me earlier; that essentially frees up two whole feats for me that I can use on other stuff, and it makes me auto-qualify for Greater Trip at level 6. Improved Feint and Two-Weapon Feinting meanwhile will require that I switch around my scores and mean that I absolutely have to take Combat Expertise. At which point if anything the Unbalancing Trick is almost a waste of a trick.
My GM is really interested one way or the other, as he feels he doesn't see enough characters taking advantage of combat maneuvers. Something I rather agree with, to be honest. I'm really getting invested in it as well, giving me some options for combat more than just being a blender.
I have considered dipping, but I had to start with only thought of Fighter or maybe some type of Brawler. Monk is a great suggestion and honestly very tempting, but on the character and roleplay side of things depending on how the campaign actually goes, I'm hoping/planning for him to develop from Lawful Neutral to Neutral Good. Which would make him non-lawful and thus he wouldn't qualify for any Monk archetype (that I'm aware of) except Martial Artist. It's a real shame though, cause Scaled Fist and its Cha-based scaling would be wonderful. And if I took anything else, I'd be having to maintain four different stats in order to make the most of it.
* Never spend traits or feats on acquiring exotic weapon proficiencies when a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone will get your what you need. (If your martial build lacks martial weapon proficiencies, then just dip a level of something that does -- such as paladin mentioned above. Or dip Fighter (Unarmed) and acquire proficiency in all monk/exotic weapons and IUS + a Style feat you can skip prerequisites in. Or Lore Warden (see below).
* Moonlight Stalker is a lot of fun with ninjas...possibly the most fun:
Race: (low-light or darkvision)
01 fighter1 [Lore Warden (Adventurer's Guide version)][Feat(c):Blind-Fight], FEAT(g), FEAT(h)
02 ninja1
03 fighter2 [Skill Over Strength], Moonlight Stalker or FEAT(g)
04 ninja2 [TALENT or Combat Trick (Moonlight Stalker) if not taken at 3rd]
05 ninja3 ...etc.
Spend 1500gp on the ioun and then grab your chained kamas. You'll be operating out of smoke-clouds (or worse) as often as you can, so prioritize a Goz Mask or similar piece of equipment.
* Never spend traits or feats on acquiring exotic weapon proficiencies when a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone will get your what you need. (If your martial build lacks martial weapon proficiencies, then just dip a level of something that does -- such as paladin mentioned above. Or dip Fighter (Unarmed) and acquire proficiency in all monk/exotic weapons and IUS + a Style feat you can skip prerequisites in. Or Lore Warden (see below).
* Moonlight Stalker is a lot of fun with ninjas...possibly the most fun:
Race: (low-light or darkvision)
01 fighter1 [Lore Warden (Adventurer's Guide version)][Feat(c):Blind-Fight], FEAT(g), FEAT(h)
02 ninja1
03 fighter2 [Skill Over Strength], Moonlight Stalker or FEAT(g)
04 ninja2 [TALENT or Combat Trick (Moonlight Stalker) if not taken at 3rd]
05 ninja3 ...etc.Spend 1500gp on the ioun and then grab your chained kamas. You'll be operating out of smoke-clouds (or worse) as often as you can, so prioritize a Goz Mask or similar piece of equipment.
For story and background reasons, he has to be a Ninja level 1. Especially since we're starting at level 1 for the campaign. My GM is willing to give me the weapon proficiency for free, so I can take him up on his offer if need be. I just want to make it work as legitimately within the rules and mechanics of Pathfinder as possible, if possible. Keep it legal, y'know?
Other than that caveat, going Lore Warden really seems like it could be interesting. Diversifying his class skills, giving him some bonus feats, and making the whole Combat Expertise bit almost a non-issue (13 INT would still need to be dealt with).
Also, thank you much for pointing me at Moonlight Stalker and the Goz Mask. If I can work Moonlight Stalker into my build somehow that'll be great (though I suspect Darkvision is a bit of a pain for darkness-based concealment), and the Goz Mask would be downright amazing for being in the midst of my own smoke bombs- would still need to do something if I went with the poison, choking, and/or blinding varieties though.
You know, that Smokestick taking up a hand makes a lot of sense. For some dumb reason when reading the feat, specifically blowing a cloud at someone, I thought you held the thing in your mouth like a cigar. Having it in one hand makes so much more sense. I've been silly.
Also, its worth noting that Monks don't suffer any penalties for changing alignment. So you could take a single level of Monk, start shifting your alignment, and then all you lose is the ability to take additional Monk levels.
Lastly, check which book you are getting Lore Warden from. There are two versions of the archetype, one lets you ignore Combat Expertise while the other gives it you for free. You want the second version if you can get it, its much better (Its from the PFS Field Guide). If you decide to do a 3 level dip in this second version, you can also gain a +2 to a specific combat maneuver like Tripping (giving you +5 total to trip checks from your Dip).
Lastly, the feat Surprise Maneuver is something you'll be qualifying for if you go for Maneuvers and its fantastic. Surprise Maneuver is basically +1 to hit for every 2 levels of Ninja you obtain as long as your target qualifies for a sneak attack. Its NUTS. Its not even just a Feat Tax to gain full BAB (that would be +5) it instead goes OVER the top and gives you a grand total of +10 to your check. Thats as good as a level 20 Brawler.
The problem isn't the Combat Expertise requirement for Moonlight Stalker, it's the Int 13 requirement, which neither Lore Warden's "Skill over Strength" ability, or the feat Dirty Fighting for that matter, alleviate. (Dirty Fighting fails because Moonlight Stalker isn't a combat maneuver feat).
Basically, unless we swing the 4k for an Int headband (if you don't put the 14 in Int, there's only way to do it:
01 Ninja1, FEAT(g), FEAT(h)
02 Brawler [Wild Child][Brawler's Cunning]
03 fighter1 (any archetype not eating feats) [Combat Expertise], Moonlight Stalker
04 Ninja2, ...etc.
The nice thing about this approach is that it gives you the real Combat Expertise rather than a facsimile.
You know, that Smokestick taking up a hand makes a lot of sense. For some dumb reason when reading the feat, specifically blowing a cloud at someone, I thought you held the thing in your mouth like a cigar. Having it in one hand makes so much more sense. I've been silly.Also, its worth noting that Monks don't suffer any penalties for changing alignment. So you could take a single level of Monk, start shifting your alignment, and then all you lose is the ability to take additional Monk levels.
Lastly, check which book you are getting Lore Warden from. There are two versions of the archetype, one lets you ignore Combat Expertise while the other gives it you for free. You want the second version if you can get it, its much better (Its from the PFS Field Guide). If you decide to do a 3 level dip in this second version, you can also gain a +2 to a specific combat maneuver like Tripping (giving you +5 total to trip checks from your Dip).
Lastly, the feat Surprise Maneuver is something you'll be qualifying for if you go for Maneuvers and its fantastic. Surprise Maneuver is basically +1 to hit for every 2 levels of Ninja you obtain as long as your target qualifies for a sneak attack. Its NUTS. Its not even just a Feat Tax to gain full BAB (that would be +5) it instead goes OVER the top and gives you a grand total of +10 to your check. Thats as good as a level 20 Brawler.
Huh, so it turns out you're quite right on the Monk aspect. With that being the case I could easily dip 3 levels or so into Scaled Fist Unchained Monk, getting access to a bunch of features and bonus feats as well as keeping my Ki pool up. I could even save myself some money by foregoing the armor I had bought earlier. It doesn't quite remove the Int issue, but that's still a genuinely appealing combination.
The problem isn't the Combat Expertise requirement for Moonlight Stalker, it's the Int 13 requirement, which neither Lore Warden's "Skill over Strength" ability, or the feat Dirty Fighting for that matter, alleviate. (Dirty Fighting fails because Moonlight Stalker isn't a combat maneuver feat).Basically, unless we swing the 4k for an Int headband (if you don't put the 14 in Int, there's only way to do it:
01 Ninja1, FEAT(g), FEAT(h)
02 Brawler [Wild Child][Brawler's Cunning]
03 fighter1 (any archetype not eating feats) [Combat Expertise], Moonlight Stalker
04 Ninja2, ...etc.The nice thing about this approach is that it gives you the real Combat Expertise rather than a facsimile.
4k gold for a headband means I would be waiting a good while in order to get that thing, which means those feats would also have to wait a while. I'm rather curious as to why you suggest Wild Child specifically; if I'd be going for a level 1 dip, I don't see much benefit to getting an animal companion. Nonetheless, looking at Brawler it's seeming more and more like it might be a worthwhile dip. I was about to write something up considering taking Monk as a dip instead of Fighter, but then I noticed I was seeing Combat Reflexes, not Combat Expertise. Granted Combat Reflexes would be good for a(n apparent) spontaneous reach weapon like the double-chained kama, but that's different.
One thing that keeps bothering me about all of this is that in going out of my way to get Combat Expertise as quickly and easily as possible, it makes considering the Unbalancing Trick seem almost like a waste. Aside from making it so I can potentially get Greater Trip two levels earlier, there's no reason I couldn't just take Combat Trick (Improved Trip) instead, or just get Improved Trip normally and get myself a different Ninja Trick. Granted, all of this ignoring I'm putting my FCB to getting an additional Ninja Trick at level 6, but still.
Huh, Ki pools stack. I just learned something new.
Still, looking at the Monk/Ninja build it looks rad:
Level 1: We're a level 1 Ninja, we wield a pair of Kama. Our first feat is Combat Expertise. We don't need our backstory to get us DCK proficiency so instead we have a spare feat to spend on w/e we want. Its pretty sweet. We can even take TWF right now, and we do.
Level 2: We're a Ninja/Monk now, we now wield a Double Chained Kama. This can be a huge character defining moment where we buy some chain, link our Kamas together, and show the party what we're really made of. We ignore TWF from now on because we can Flurry of Blows to make two attacks a round with 0 penalty to our attack rolls (Until we have BAB+6 where Improved TWF gets us another attack or we wanna use Two Weapon Feint to get sneak attacks at 3rd level). We also gain Combat Reflexes so we make 4 attacks of opportunity a round. Plus we can Stun someone 1/day to get a free Sneak Attack, and have IUS so we're burly even caught with our pants down.
Level 3: We get 2 feats this level, and Evasion. One from our Ninja Trick, and one from hitting level 3. First feat is Improved Trip, we can now Trip (Take Unbalancing Trick, COmbat trick is saved for later). Second Feat is Two Weapon Feint (Doesn't require improved Feint), we can now sacrifice one of our attacks to feint and ensure Sneak Attack. We also now have Ki Pool allowing us to make 3!!!! attacks at our full BAB several times a day (Or at -2 when using TWF to get sneak attacks). This is dope, it means while flanking we can make our regular attacks at full BAB, or make our target vulnerable (if they are a humanoid and effected by bluff) with Two Weapon Fighting.
Level 4: We don't ever need another Monk level ever again. We're now a level 3 Ninja, with another sneak attack die, some better saves, and more BAB.
Level 5: Heyyo, we're now level 5 (Ninja 4) and gain another Ninja Trick. Vanishing Trick is now online if you want it. We can also turn on Surprise Maneuver, so from now on every +1d6 sneak attack dice we get our hands on is +1 to our maneuvers against vulnerbale targets. Since you can FREELY swap out any attack roll for a trip attempt, we can TWF, use TWF to set them up for a sneak attack thanks to Two Weapon Feint, and then trip them at +2 our usual bonuses.
Level 6: Ninja 5 is the hardest Ninja level to deal with because its so lame, we get nothing except sneak attack damage. RIP
Level 7: Ninja 6 (BAB +5), we gain a feat and a ninja trick. Good stuff, especially if we took Unbalancing Trick earlier. This not only saves Combat trick for now (which means we can grab ANY feat and not waste it on Improved Trip) but we also qualify for Greater Trip right here and now. It rocks because at BAB+6 we want Improved TWF to get up to 4 attacks (5 with Ki expenditure). AND we still have a free Ninja Trick.
Level 8: Ninja 7: Sneak attack and BAB, we qualify for feats here but can't take it because we have nothing to use.
Level 9: Ninja 8: Improved TWF is in your grasp, oh, and if we saved Combat Trick up till now we can get Improved Two Weapon Feint allowing us to make 3 (4 with Ki) attacks while getting our Sneak Attacks on (Which also give us a bonus on our trip attempts).
This is all Rules legal, we lose nothing for leaving behind our Lawful alignment after 2nd level, and we have become a Trip/Feint/TWF/Reach ninja master.
Sorry for the double post but I had another idea:
A second option is to ditch Two Weapon Fighting, grab racial heritage (Tengu), and trade out Two Weapon Feint/Improved Two Weapon Feint for Feinting Flurry/Improved Feinting Flurry. You can't TWF this way, but you CAN use your Flurry of Blows class feature to completely mimic TWF up until 9th level. From then on you suffer out on 1-2 attacks per round, BUT you never take the -2 penalty to hit from Two Weapon Fighting.
This option makes fewer attacks (thus hitting less) but at a higher attack roll (thus hitting more), and you can always get extra attacks from Ki and Haste. You can fluff the flurry of blows as TWF and folks won't know any better one way or another. This caps you at 4 attacks (5 with Ki, 6 with Ki and Haste) instead of 6 attacks (7 with Ki, 8 with Ki and Haste) but does get you Tengu feats. Tengu feats kinda suck though (1/day Flight is worth less than a thousand gold as a potion). They are fairly flavorable though.
Huh, Ki pools stack. I just learned something new.
Still, looking at the Monk/Ninja build it looks rad:
Level 1: We're a level 1 Ninja, we wield a pair of Kama. Our first feat is Combat Expertise. We don't need our backstory to get us DCK proficiency so instead we have a spare feat to spend on w/e we want. Its pretty sweet. We can even take TWF right now, and we do.
Level 2: We're a Ninja/Monk now, we now wield a Double Chained Kama. This can be a huge character defining moment where we buy some chain, link our Kamas together, and show the party what we're really made of. We ignore TWF from now on because we can Flurry of Blows to make two attacks a round with 0 penalty to our attack rolls (Until we have BAB+6 where Improved TWF gets us another attack or we wanna use Two Weapon Feint to get sneak attacks at 3rd level). We also gain Combat Reflexes so we make 4 attacks of opportunity a round. Plus we can Stun someone 1/day to get a free Sneak Attack, and have IUS so we're burly even caught with our pants down.
Level 3: We get 2 feats this level, and Evasion. One from our Ninja Trick, and one from hitting level 3. First feat is Improved Trip, we can now Trip (Take Unbalancing Trick, COmbat trick is saved for later). Second Feat is Two Weapon Feint (Doesn't require improved Feint), we can now sacrifice one of our attacks to feint and ensure Sneak Attack. We also now have Ki Pool allowing us to make 3!!!! attacks at our full BAB several times a day (Or at -2 when using TWF to get sneak attacks). This is dope, it means while flanking we can make our regular attacks at full BAB, or make our target vulnerable (if they are a humanoid and effected by bluff) with Two Weapon Fighting.
Level 4: We don't ever need another Monk level ever again. We're now a level 3 Ninja, with another sneak attack die, some better saves, and more BAB.
Level 5: Heyyo, we're now level 5 (Ninja 4) and gain another Ninja Trick. Vanishing Trick is now online if you want it. We can also turn on Surprise Maneuver, so from now on every +1d6 sneak attack dice we get our hands on is +1 to our maneuvers against vulnerbale targets. Since you can FREELY swap out any attack roll for a trip attempt, we can TWF, use TWF to set them up for a sneak attack thanks to Two Weapon Feint, and then trip them at +2 our usual bonuses.
Level 6: Ninja 5 is the hardest Ninja level to deal with because its so lame, we get nothing except sneak attack damage. RIP
Level 7: Ninja 6 (BAB +5), we gain a feat and a ninja trick. Good stuff, especially if we took Unbalancing Trick earlier. This not only saves Combat trick for now (which means we can grab ANY feat and not waste it on Improved Trip) but we also qualify for Greater Trip right here and now. It rocks because at BAB+6 we want Improved TWF to get up to 4 attacks (5 with Ki expenditure). AND we still have a free Ninja Trick.
Level 8: Ninja 7: Sneak attack and BAB, we qualify for feats here but can't take it because we have nothing to use.
Level 9: Ninja 8: Improved TWF is in your grasp, oh, and if we saved Combat Trick up till now we can get Improved Two Weapon Feint allowing us to make 3 (4 with Ki) attacks while getting our Sneak Attacks on (Which also give us a bonus on our trip attempts).
This is all Rules legal, we lose nothing for leaving behind our Lawful alignment after 2nd level, and we have become a Trip/Feint/TWF/Reach ninja master.
What Can I Say Except, You're welcome.
This is honestly all pretty freaking awesome, and indeed works very very well. I know I'm being a little bit of a stickler, but there's one remote flaw I'm seeing.
The racial feats that are a big part of the Ninja's character, even if they're not super important in terms of combat, haha. If we can find a means to work those into this set, even if it slows things down just a little bit, then I will be an incredibly happy camper.
Definitely taking Scaled Fist archetype by the way, because then CHA to my AC.
BTW, while surprise maneuver is excellent, ninjas can get a trick which may be even better. Redirect force can give absurdly large bonuses. It also doesn't require use of combat trick.
REPOST Thanks to Editing Limits and AVR's suggestion
It would be far easier to just fluff yourself as having tengu blood and being of tengu heritage but who am I to deny the zane?
Same Build, take Scaled Fist Monk at level 2
1: Racial Heritage
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Combat Reflexes
2: Stunning Fist
2: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Improved Trip (Unbalancing Trick)
3: Combat Expertise
5: Two Weapon Feint
5: Vanishing Trick (Ninja Trick)
7: Greater Trip OR Surprise Maneuver
7: Smoke Bomb (Ninja Trick)
7: Redirect Force (Ninja Trick)
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [whichever you didn't pick at 7] (Combat Trick)
11: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [Whatever final choice you skipped out on at 9]
11: Invisible Blade (Advanced Ninja Trick)
13: Tengu Wings
13: Tengu Raven Form (Advanced Ninja Trick: Feat)
13: Advanced Ninja Trick
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15: Advanced Ninja Trick
17: Body Guard
17: In Harm's Way (Blood Debt Ninja Trick)
19: Fury's Fall
19: Advanced Ninja Trick
19: Advanced Ninja Trick
You NEED Greater Trip, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Feint, and Surprise Maneuver ASAP. These can't be put off without your build falling apart. This means the earliest you can take Tengu WIngs/Raven Form is level 13 (Though you could get both feats then with the Feat Ninja Trick). At least you have the Room there to do that, since there are not too many other feats you need after this point. Greater TWF at level 15 is the goal.
After that you have your 15th, and 19th level Rogue talents along with your 17th and 19th level feats free to use. This leaves us room to pick up other fun things. Like the ability to buff our allies AC against attacks headed their way, intercept damage that manages to go through, and exact a blood debt from them. Finally, end game Fury's Fall will give us at least +6 to our Trip attempts thanks to a +6 Physical Stat Belt giving us around 22 Dexterity if we start with 16.
EDIT:
Redirect Force is good if we are ok with eating an AoO to Prone someone (usually a VERY good choice) but we could also grab Smoke Bomb with Fogcutter's Lenses to perform Sneak Attacks that way and also gain Concealment.
Regardless as to your choice their, you have two extra Ninja Talents to choose from. Suggestions include Forgotten Trick, Ghost Step, and Redirect Force if you chose to take Smoke Bomb earlier (Late game Smoke Bomb will be useless so no need to pick it at level 15 XD)
Snipping
This looks really good, to be honest. I notice a slight issue though; Unchained Monk (and Monk in general) don't get Evasion until level 2, so if I wanted to get that then I'd have to dip two levels into Scaled Fist, which could seriously mess things up from the look of it. Especially with all the meticulous planning.
But yeah, from the looks of things, I think this is really something I could work with. I just hope nothing happens that forces me to diverge from this setup, otherwise I'm gonna be floundering trying to figure out what to do. I'm also gonna be relying very heavily on just raw skill rolls, since I can't take any mundane or skill-based feats. I'm also gonna be relying entirely on items to improve my saves, buuut it's Pathfinder; you can't expect yourself to be capable of doing everything as a solo act. If anything managing to fit in stealth/racial/feints/trip/TWF already seems like quite the miracle as it is.
EDIT: I just realized all of this is also neglecting my FCB (technically Rogue, but it applies since Ninja is an alternate version of Rogue), which lets me get an extra Ninja Trick every 6 levels. I'd be able to get an extra Ninja Trick at levels 7, 13, and 19.
End game you could always ditch Body Guard, Blood Oath, and Fury's Fall for Save Boosters and a different ninja trick to replace Blood Oath (Suggestion, Replace either Bodyguard/Blood Oath or Fury's Fall one with Steadfast Personality its better than Iron Will for you if this becomes necessary). Evasion can be grabbed at level 13 if you don't mind waiting on Tengu Raven Form at level 15 instead or just take Evasion at 15th level. As far as Raw skill rolls, you've got everything as a class skill and you're rocking 6+Int Skills per level. You'll do fine
If Monk 2 is a huge dealio for early Evasion you should grab it at level 3, that just pushes everything that was off kilter back on kilter so you're grabbing the feats on Odd levels and the Ninja Talents on even levels like you're meant to.
Edit: Extra Ninja Tricks
Ninja 18/Monk 2
1: Racial Heritage
1: Two Weapon Fighting
Monk Break
2: Combat Reflexes
2: Stunning Fist
2: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Combat Expertise
3: Monk Bonus Feat (Deflect Arrows/Dodge/Intimidating Prowess)
Back to being a Ninja
4: Improved Trip (Unbalancing Trick)
5: Two Weapon Feint
6: Vanishing Trick (Ninja Trick)
7: Greater Trip OR Surprise Maneuver
8: Smoke Bomb (Ninja Trick)
8: Bonus Ninja Trick Redirect Force
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [whichever you didn't pick at 7] (Combat Trick)
11: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [Whatever final choice you skipped out on at 9]
12: Invisible Blade (Advanced Ninja Trick)
13: Tengu Wings
14: Tengu Raven Form (Advanced Ninja Trick: Feat)
14: Advanced Ninja Trick
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16: Advanced Ninja Trick
17: Body Guard
18: In Harm's Way (Blood Debt Ninja Trick)
19: Fury's Fall
20: Advanced Ninja Trick
20: Advanced Ninja Trick
End game you could always ditch Body Guard, Blood Oath, and Fury's Fall for Save Boosters and a different ninja trick to replace Blood Oath (Suggestion, Replace either Bodyguard/Blood Oath or Fury's Fall one with Steadfast Personality its better than Iron Will for you if this becomes necessary). Evasion can be grabbed at level 13 if you don't mind waiting on Tengu Raven Form at level 15 instead or just take Evasion at 15th level. As far as Raw skill rolls, you've got everything as a class skill and you're rocking 6+Int Skills per level. You'll do fine
If Monk 2 is a huge dealio for early Evasion you should grab it at level 3, that just pushes everything that was off kilter back on kilter so you're grabbing the feats on Odd levels and the Ninja Talents on even levels like you're meant to.
Edit: Extra Ninja Tricks
Ninja 18/Monk 2
1: Racial Heritage
1: Two Weapon Fighting
Monk Break
2: Combat Reflexes
2: Stunning Fist
2: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Combat Expertise
3: Monk Bonus Feat (Deflect Arrows/Dodge/Intimidating Prowess)
Back to being a Ninja
4: Improved Trip (Unbalancing Trick)
5: Two Weapon Feint
6: Vanishing Trick (Ninja Trick)
7: Greater Trip OR Surprise Maneuver
8: Smoke Bomb (Ninja Trick)
8: Bonus Ninja Trick Redirect Force
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [whichever you didn't pick at 7] (Combat Trick)
11: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [Whatever final choice you skipped out on at 9]
12: Invisible Blade (Advanced Ninja Trick)
13: Tengu Wings
14: Tengu Raven Form (Advanced Ninja Trick: Feat)
14: Advanced Ninja Trick
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16: Advanced Ninja Trick
17: Body Guard
18: In Harm's Way (Blood Debt Ninja Trick)
19: Fury's Fall
20: Advanced Ninja Trick
20: Advanced Ninja Trick
It's not a big deal, it's just that my DM has said while he wants us to build for our personal fun (just about everyone taking part in the campaign had to tell me to build something I wanted to have fun with, not focus on finding something fun that would benefit the party), he's also going to be challenging us and taking full advantage of any noticeable weaknesses within the party.
My two biggest problems building characters for D&D campaigns? Too many ideas to pick from, and a nigh-debilitating desire to avod being caught with my pants down. So hearing that from the DM makes me want to follow a certain lion's advice and "be prepared".
EDIT: Also something I'm going to look into is "Swift Poisoner" since I can take multiple Rogue Talents. Something else that doesn't get a lot of love besides combat maneuvers is poisoning your enemies, haha >:D
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There's reasons for that Inquisitive. Poison can burn thru a lot of money, usually targets a monsters best save (Fort) and works slowly. Not everything which is good vs. PCs is good when used by PCs.
Also stop being distracted by every shiny thing! You can't fit everything into one character unless you're playing in a gestalt game.
There's reasons for that Inquisitive. Poison can burn thru a lot of money, usually targets a monsters best save (Fort) and works slowly. Not everything which is good vs. PCs is good when used by PCs.
Also stop being distracted by every shiny thing! You can't fit everything into one character unless you're playing in a gestalt game.
Haha, I get what you meant but it's not a matter of just happening across poisoning and getting distracted by it. It's something I was looking to fit into this build as well, though it's looking increasingly unlikely and unfeasible.
To give a bit of context, my player characters so far have been:
*A Tiefling (Beastbrood) Draconic Sorcerer. Never got past level 5 due to issues with the campaign.
*A Dragonborn Monk, Way of the Open Palm in 5e. Only one to get past level 5, currently sitting at level 7-8.
*An Aasimar (Plumethkin) Ranger, Deep Walker archetype. Currently level 4 and more than likely in need of retraining.
As you can see, all of my characters so far have a common element: They are very.... direct, in what they do. Hell before I settled on Ninja I was looking at making an Investigator; had been planning on making one as a backup for the campaign my Aasimar is in (same GM and group for this upcoming campaign, actually), but when the opportunity arose to finally make the character and put it to use.... Investigator just wasn't speaking to me at the time.
I eventually settled on and opted for Ninja, in part due to recent experience playing For Honor, and became attached to doing more than just some middle of the line damage. I've never actually played around with utility like maneuvers or poisons; I've never really gotten the chance.
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One thing that keeps bothering me about all of this is that in going out of my way to get Combat Expertise as quickly and easily as possible, it makes considering the Unbalancing Trick seem almost like a waste. Aside from making it so I can potentially get Greater Trip two levels earlier, there's no reason I couldn't just take Combat Trick (Improved Trip) instead, or just get Improved Trip normally and get myself a different Ninja Trick. Granted, all of this ignoring I'm putting my FCB to getting an additional Ninja Trick at level 6, but still.
~ ~ ~
Here's how I'd build a human ninja given these stats: 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10....
Str: 16
Dex+ 20 (bump 8th, 12th)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 15 (bump 4th)
01 Brawler1 [Flurry][Brawler's Cunning], Point-blank Shot, Blind-fight
02 NInja1 [SA+1d6]
03 fighter1 [Combat Expertise], Moonlight Stalker
04 Ninja2 [Ki pool][Trick: Flurry of Stars], CHA>16
05 Ninja3 [SA+2d6], Far Shot
06 Ninja4 [Trick:Combat:Rapid Shot]
07 Fighter2 [BAB6][Deadly Aim], Accomplished Sneak Attacker [SA+3d6]
08 Ninja5 [SA+4d6], ...etc.
Equipment: Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Goz Mask, Circlet of Persuasion, masterwork adaptable composite longbow, wands (two) of Obscuring Mist, Meditation Crystals (several), +2 "tool" for UMD (common magical phrases book).
Skills: UMD at 4th; wand activation: 4 ranks UMD +3 (class) +6 (Cha+Circlet) +2 (tool) +2 (successful before) = +17 (in other words, failing DC20 check only on a 1 by 5th level)
Our goal as a ninja is to gain Total Concealment from opponents, yet still be able to attack them, typically by hiding within the 10' boundaries of Obscuring Mist UMD'd as our standard-action during the surprise round. With total concealment, we are effectively invisible and enjoy all the benefits (+2 to attack, opponent denied dexterity bonus to AC, and eligible for sneak-attack bonus damage).
Melee? ....don't be silly; we don't have the HP for that. That's what five-footing back into the mist is for. Call us a coward, do they? ...those annoying sounds cease after they're dead.
At 4th, we're zinging three shurikens in a full attack for 3x [d2+6+d6] = ~33hp toward any target within 30' and are essentially immune from rebound. By 7th, we've escalated drastically to 5x [d2+10+3d6] = ~110hp outbound damage -- which is scary good for a throwing build not also having a SavTech barbarian dip tucked in too.
We're -7 while full-attacking from BAB-1(off full) / Flurry-of-Stars / Deadly Aim / Rapid Shotting at 7th, but it's all offset by +2 (Moonlight Stalker), +1 (Point-blank Shot), +2 (effective invisibility), and +? (amount of AC opponent loses due to denied dexterity bonus, which can be pretty significant).
One thing that keeps bothering me about all of this is that in going out of my way to get Combat Expertise as quickly and easily as possible, it makes considering the Unbalancing Trick seem almost like a waste. Aside from making it so I can potentially get Greater Trip two levels earlier, there's no reason I couldn't just take Combat Trick (Improved Trip) instead, or just get Improved Trip normally and get myself a different Ninja Trick. Granted, all of this ignoring I'm putting my FCB to getting an additional Ninja Trick at level 6, but still.~ ~ ~
Here's how I'd build a human ninja given these stats: 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10....
Str: 16
Dex+ 20 (bump 8th, 12th)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 15 (bump 4th)01 Brawler1 [Flurry][Brawler's Cunning], Point-blank Shot, Blind-fight
02 NInja1 [SA+1d6]
03 fighter1 [Combat Expertise], Moonlight Stalker
04 Ninja2 [Ki pool][Trick: Flurry of Stars], CHA>16
05 Ninja3 [SA+2d6], Far Shot
06 Ninja4 [Trick:Combat:Rapid Shot]
07 Fighter2 [BAB6][Deadly Aim], Accomplished Sneak Attacker [SA+3d6]
08 Ninja5 [SA+4d6], ...etc.Equipment: Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Goz Mask, Circlet of Persuasion, masterwork adaptable composite longbow, wands (two) of Obscuring Mist, Meditation Crystals (several), +2 "tool" for UMD (common magical phrases book).
Skills: UMD at 4th; wand activation: 4 ranks UMD +3 (class) +6 (Cha+Circlet) +2 (tool) +2 (successful before) = +17 (in other words, failing DC20 check only on a 1 by 5th level)
Our goal as a ninja is to gain Total Concealment from opponents, yet still be able to attack them, typically by hiding within the 10' boundaries of Obscuring Mist UMD'd as our standard-action during the surprise round. With total concealment, we are effectively invisible and enjoy all the benefits (+2 to attack, opponent denied dexterity bonus to AC, and eligible for sneak-attack bonus damage).
Melee? ....don't be silly; we don't have the HP for that. That's what five-footing back into the mist is for. Call us a coward, do they? ...those annoying sounds cease after they're dead.
At 4th, we're zinging three shurikens in a full attack for 3x [d2+6+d6] = ~33hp toward any target within 30' and are essentially immune from rebound. By 7th, we've escalated drastically to 5x [d2+10+3d6] = ~110hp outbound damage -- which is scary good for a throwing build not also having a SavTech barbarian dip tucked in too.
We're -7 while full-attacking from BAB-1(off full) / Flurry-of-Stars / Deadly Aim / Rapid Shotting at 7th, but it's all offset by +2 (Moonlight Stalker), +1 (Point-blank Shot), +2 (effective invisibility), and +? (amount of AC opponent loses due to denied dexterity bonus, which can be pretty significant).
Damn, dude. Before making this guy I actually had an idea for making an unarmed Ninja focused on Adder Strike and shuriken, but that build seems pretty interesting. The only flaw in it is the fact that Ninja are proficient with shortbow, not the longbow.
I actually had an idea for making an unarmed Ninja focused on Adder Strike and shuriken, but that build seems pretty interesting. The only flaw in it is the fact that Ninja are proficient with shortbow, not the longbow.
"Flaws" are merely hints to multiclass! ;-) Fighters are proficient in longbow, and if we're dipping already....
Variant attribute distribution for our shuriken-chucker:
Str: 10 or 12
Dex+ 20 (bump 8th, 12th)
Con: 16 or 14
Int: 12 or 10
Wis: 14 or 16
Cha: 15 (bump 4th)
Rationale: despite contributing to damage, base attribute bonus strength offers very little long-term to the archer, and the higher level he gets, the smaller a percentage of the damage it accounts for. For example, in the previous build, a 16 Str +3 bonus accounted for only 15pts out of ~110pts potential (if all five shurikens hit). In other words, maybe you're better off with a relative +2 Fort save (or +1/+1 Fort/Will), +2HP/level, +1 Skills/level, and +1 Int skills -- that seems like a really good deal in exchange for -2 or -3 damage per star. At 10th, when BAB becomes 8 and Deadly Aim hikes up a notch, and spare cash is laying around for a belt or ioun upgrade to strength, shuriken/round output with only a 10 strength is up to 6 per (Hasted) for d2+8+6d6(sneak+Flame Arrow), averaging ~183pts if all hit. A starting 16 Str as opposed to a 10 would up that by only 18pts, or less than 10%.
Strength the build is really only using much in the baby level game while flurry-punching from flank in melee prior to 4th level, after which multi-attack opponents become increasingly prevalent -- and we're not a long-term d10 or d12 class built to handle slugfest melee and sky-high Fort saves, so we get out of it and transition to sniping from the fog.
I actually had an idea for making an unarmed Ninja focused on Adder Strike and shuriken, but that build seems pretty interesting. The only flaw in it is the fact that Ninja are proficient with shortbow, not the longbow."Flaws" are merely hints to multiclass! ;-) Fighters are proficient in longbow, and if we're dipping already....
Variant attribute distribution for our shuriken-chucker:
Str: 10 or 12
Dex+ 20 (bump 8th, 12th)
Con: 16 or 14
Int: 12 or 10
Wis: 14 or 16
Cha: 15 (bump 4th)Rationale: despite contributing to damage, base attribute bonus strength offers very little long-term to the archer, and the higher level he gets, the smaller a percentage of the damage it accounts for. For example, in the previous build, a 16 Str +3 bonus accounted for only 15pts out of ~110pts potential (if all five shurikens hit). In other words, maybe you're better off with a relative +2 Fort save (or +1/+1 Fort/Will), +2HP/level, +1 Skills/level, and +1 Int skills -- that seems like a really good deal in exchange for -2 or -3 damage per star. At 10th, when BAB becomes 8 and Deadly Aim hikes up a notch, and spare cash is laying around for a belt or ioun upgrade to strength, shuriken/round output with only a 10 strength is up to 6 per (Hasted) for d2+8+6d6(sneak+Flame Arrow), averaging ~183pts if all hit. A starting 16 Str as opposed to a 10 would up that by only 18pts, or less than 10%.
Strength the build is really only using much in the baby level game while flurry-punching from flank in melee prior to 4th level, after which multi-attack opponents become increasingly prevalent -- and we're not a long-term d10 or d12 class built to handle slugfest melee and sky-high Fort saves, so we get out of it and transition to sniping from the fog.
Throwing a lot of interesting ideas this way, I'll certainly say that. But given how I feel about how my Ranger has been playing out (A post on that right here), I'm a little iffy on playing another ranged character. But not so iffy that I don't seriously want to try shuriken spamming as a Ninja the next time an opportunity comes along.
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Throwing a lot of interesting ideas this way, I'll certainly say that. But given how I feel about how my Ranger has been playing out (A post on that right here), I'm a little iffy on playing another ranged character. But not so iffy that I don't seriously want to try shuriken spamming as a Ninja the next time an opportunity comes along.
Hmm.... Let me hazily recall my old PFS polearm ninja and slightly update him for new material:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12 (half-elf, 20pt 14,14,13,13,12,12 array)
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha+ 15
01 Monk1 [unchained][Combat Reflexes], Power Attack, EWP Fauchard (Ancestral Arms)
02 Ninja1 [SA+1d6]
03 Cleric1 [domains: Darkness(Night subdomain):Blindfight], Moonlight Stalker
04 Ninja2 [Ki][Vanishing Trick], Cha>16
Equipment: Wand of obscuring mist, Goz Mask (should be yours at 4th level in PFS if you shave your pennies and don't blow Fame acquisition)
This character used to start as a "regular" chained monk without Power Attack (because that requires BAB1). -- Yes, I had a martial melee character who swung a big stick while BAB0 at 3rd-level in PFS with no stat higher than a 14. He hauled ass. Hit like a mutagen barbarian versus blind/tripped/denied-dex AC opponents enveloped in mist. The numeric bonus from strength wasn't terribly high, but that hardly mattered factoring in all the extra attacks from AoOs and Ki versus stumbling targets. With Moonlight Stalker, it was like having an 18 strength while getting to beat on people who couldn't see me with half their armor missing.
I retired him shortly after he became awesome because casting obscuring mist in a room isn't something you really should be doing if you care at all about the fun-quotient of your teammates...which is exactly the sort of empathic mentality kinda, sorta, gently enforced in PFS.
05 Barbarian1 [Savage Technologist], Extra Rage
Oh please god no make it stop cuz that would be just 'orrible. (That barb dip could be at 1st, of course, for maximum HP, AC, and general butt-kicking.)
~ ~ ~
Ninja oddities:
* As opposed to rogues, none of their abilities (such as the rogue's Evasion that ninjas don't get) are restricted to light armor. (That's not to say that heavy armor TWF is optimal in this game, but if you ever had a hankering to play a fighter who's tired of that grind after some Nth level of Armor Training, it's there.)
* With Moonlight Stalker as your mambajamba, it becomes attractive to spread point-buy cost out since "attrition ratio" in so severely skewed in the ninja's favor that he can take all day to kill his man...or at least until the supply of his smoke, mist, and fog generators run out. Ninjas can be MADder than virtually any other martial concept, even bard.
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I looked at the Stalker Talent you're referring to, but I found a bit of a problem:
"Note: This talent is appropriate for unchained rogues and for standard rogues, but is not available to other classes or alternate classes that can choose rogue talents (such as Ninja)."
That means that even though I thoroughly agree these are undeniably amazing options... alas, they aren't options for me T^T
A rogue's ki is piss-poor compared to a ninja's.
A rogue with this talent gains a small ki pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja’s ki pool, but the rogue’s ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue gains a number of ki points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). These ki points replenish at the start of each day. If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool. She can spend a ki point to gain a +10-foot bonus to movement until the end of her turn.
It evens says so.
SnippedI looked at the Stalker Talent you're referring to, but I found a bit of a problem:
"Note: This talent is appropriate for unchained rogues and for standard rogues, but is not available to other classes or alternate classes that can choose rogue talents (such as Ninja)."
That means that even though I thoroughly agree these are undeniably amazing options... alas, they aren't options for me T^T
What a hateful and obscure rule. Thank you for making me aware.
My advice then is to not be a ninja. You're already giving up so much by going ninja over unchained rogue, at this point I suggest switching to the latter and calling yourself a ninja. Spend a talent on Ki Pool below, and later an advanced talent on Unlock Ki, flip the bird toward class parity as the only part of ninja you've sacrificed is the Light Steps power at level 6, and debuff all night with Debilitating Injury.
A rogue with this talent gains a small ki pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja’s ki pool, but the rogue’s ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue gains a number of ki points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). These ki points replenish at the start of each day. If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool. She can spend a ki point to gain a +10-foot bonus to movement until the end of her turn.A rogue with this advanced talent increases the number of points in the ki pool that she gains from the ki pool rogue talent to be equal to 1/2 her rogue level + her highest mental ability score modifier (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). In addition, she can spend 2 points from her ki pool as a swift action to gain the skill unlocks (Pathfinder Unchained 82) for one skill of her choice as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill. This benefit lasts for 1 minute. The rogue must have a ki pool before selecting this advanced talent.
Unfortunately there are these issues that come to mind:
-My proficiency with kamas, which though I would get once I dip into Monk is still an issue.-Ki Pool's extra attack, which I otherwise wouldn't get at all since I'll only be dipping two levels into Monk.
-Finesse Training wouldn't work when using my double-chained kama as a reach weapon.
-Light Steps is nonetheless a really, really good ability for crossing difficult or otherwise hostile terrain. And unfortunately not even the 3PP Unchained Ninja has it >.>
Geez, and I thought with that big grand list up there I finally had this whole thing figured out... le sigh.
EDIT: Ninja'd about the Ninja's Ki pool in a thread about making a Ninja. Ninception?
Unchained rogues don't get the option of the ki pool talent either, short of GM grace.
However, there is a vigilante archetype which does get a ki pool. It's closely related to the ninja. The teisatsu vigilante for your edification. The racial paragon vigilante talent is also worth noting as it may be the answer to your desire for multiple racial feats - being able to spontaneously get tengu wings is almost strictly better than light step.
Edit: On using a double chained kama as a 2H weapon without using the double quality, there's nothing against it in the rules, and I could see it as either wrapping the chain around your wrists to add weight to a swing (non-reach), or holding on to one kama and using the full length of the chain for a long swing (reach).
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My proficiency with kamas, which though I would get once I dip into Monk is still an issue.A cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun is only 1500gp. (But you'll still need a class granting martial weapon proficiencies for it to function.)
My stats before applying racial bonus are rolled, and are 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10.
Character alignment is Lawful Neutral
If you're that close, have you considered being Lawful Good?
Str: 16
Dex: 15 (bump 4th)
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha+ 20 (all other bumps)
Tian human worshipping Shizuru (and ask your GM if you can substitute Shizuru as an equivalent LG eastern deity, and use your ancestral blade, for the purposes of the "Iomedae's Inspiring Sword" Divine Fighting Technique, which you'll take around 5th or 6th when you pick up your first mercy in the build below)
Traits: Accelerated Drinker, Ancestor's Blade*
01 paladin1, Combat Reflexes, Fey Foundling
02 ninja1
03 paladin2 [divine grace], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
04 ninja2 [Trick:Combat:(Power Attack), [charisma-based ki pool]
Weapon: *Fauchard, or other exotic reach-weapon suitable for Power Attack.
Equipment: Tatami-do heavy armor, buckler, spring-loaded wrist sheathes, potions of Enlarge Person, cracked opalescent white pyramid (fauchard), Cloak of Resistance +1, Meditation Crystals (several)
--The concept here is of an honorable "daylight ninja" (dressed in white, naturally) who does not skulk in the darkness sniping with poisoned weapons like vermin of the night, but instead faces his opponents in straight-up open combat. (But the ways of the East remain inscrutable, thus the build possesses features that a knight from the Inner Sea would consider odd, if not questionable.)
Features:
* Monstrous synergy exploiting charisma, so it is a shoo-in prime stat bolstering saving throws, Ki pool, Smites, and social skill checks. Not to mention a party-wide super buff if you're approved for the Inspiring Sword thing.
* At Paladin4, you'll be able to easily recharge your Medication Crystals for effectively infinite Ki (your pool won't empty unless combats really drag). Until then, you'll have to visit shrines to your deity, or just treat the cheap crystals as consumables.
* 16 Str becomes 18 while Enlarged (18 is a "sweet spot" for 2hPA).
* Relies less on sneak-attack bonus damage and more on piling up numeric bonuses applicable to doubling on a crit with his extended threat-range weapon.
Okay okay, guys. This is starting to go a little off the topic I made the thread for. Like I said at the start, I was already intent on making a Ninja, making him a Human with Racial Heritage, and making use of the dual-chained kamas. Maybe such a setup isn't supremely optimal, but that is what I'm intent on making for this particular campaign. This guide that ShroudedInLight wrote is great for what I want to make. From there if possible and if people are willing, I'd love to be able to improve on this list; making it take as few feats and ninja tricks as possible so that I can open up additional options.
The options and ideas you're all giving aren't just impressive but also very intriguing, giving me a lot of ideas for other characters and concepts to use in the future. But that's just it; it's to the point where they are becoming entirely different builds for entirely different characters. I don't want nor intend to sound rude or ungrateful for the menagerie of ideas, but could we please focus more on the character I have here and now?
Outside of magic items (which I sometimes lack knowledge of) the only way I can think to make the build faster is to make your Double Chained Kama a Training Weapon.
Notably, as a Double Weapon, you upgrade each half of your Double Chained Kama separately (and can also have each half made from a different metal. Suggestion is one half Cold Iron and One Half Silver to pierce various damage reductions). While this does mean you are looking at a TON of cash invested into your double weapon, it also means that you can apply the Training weapon enchantment TWICE to the same weapon.
So, if you are interested, at the cheapest you could spend 6k on each end of your Double Chained Kama to get 2 free feats while you wield the Kama. Its VERY important to note that feats your weapon provide you do not allow you to use them pre-requisites for other feats. This means you can only apply Greater Trip, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Fury's Fall, or Body Guard to your weapon if you are using my earlier build.
As you can only gain the Training enchantment once per head of your Kama, this allows you to replace two feats from the build with two other feats of your choice. Personal suggestions are Greater Trip, Fury's Fall, or Body Guard. Greater Two Weapon Fighting just comes so late that by the time you qualify for it (training weapons don't grant you the feat unless you qualify) it will cost you so much gold that it might not be worth it.
Plus, you qualify for Body Guard any time after level 2 and its GLORIOUS for your build. Getting it early is fantastic.
1: Racial Heritage
1: Two Weapon Fighting
Monk Break
2: Combat Reflexes
2: Stunning Fist
2: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Combat Expertise
3: Monk Bonus Feat (Deflect Arrows/Dodge/Intimidating Prowess)
Back to being a Ninja
4: Improved Trip (Unbalancing Trick)
5: Two Weapon Feint
6: Vanishing Trick (Ninja Trick)
7: Greater Trip OR Surprise Maneuver
8: Smoke Bomb (Ninja Trick)
8: Bonus Ninja Trick Redirect Force
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [whichever you didn't pick at 7] (Combat Trick)
11: Improved Two Weapon Feint or Greater Trip/Surprise Maneuver [Whatever final choice you skipped out on at 9]
12: Invisible Blade (Advanced Ninja Trick)
13: Tengu Wings
14: Tengu Raven Form (Advanced Ninja Trick: Feat)
14: Advanced Ninja Trick
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16: Advanced Ninja Trick
17: Body Guard
18: In Harm's Way (Blood Debt Ninja Trick)
19: Fury's Fall
20: Advanced Ninja Trick
20: Advanced Ninja Trick
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Putting two of those three feats you mentioned on the kama heads sounds like what I'd do, most likely Greater Trip and Fury's Fall. All three of them are very good feats, but I don't want to be outright crippled if I were in a situation where I'm forced to either use different weapons or just don't have access to my double-chained kama.
There are two things I'm rather curious about. Bodyguard requires I be adjacent to my ally, regardless of whether my weapon has reach or not. Given a melee-centric Ninja is more than likely going to be darting around the battlefield amidst enemies, it's not so much a question of "is the feat really that good" but more "am I really going to use it much?". Though I suppose that would be a question answered over the course of the campaign between now and getting the enhancement, wouldn't it?
The other thing I'm curious about is clarification. The "Redirect Force" Ninja trick does require I not only provoke an AoO, but also adds the damage I take as a bonus to the roll. I'm a Ninja with means only d8 HP rolls, and while the Scaled Fist Monk levels will mean I get 2d10 HP, I'm still concerned about how well this trick will serve me later on when we're facing enemies that could possibly tear me apart with a solid hit.
For reference on how far the campaign is going to go: it's up in the air. DM has plans but he's adaptable, and the actions of the players are going to have undoubted impact on how things go. That includes just how far the campaign will go in terms of levels. It's entirely possible we go up to level 20- beyond that even.
So, couple of answers here for you:
1: I like bodyguard because it allows me to do something new, which is provide my allies with a bonus to their armor class without spending an action. This is especially nice because it means that your allies can position themselves to take advantage of this benefit.
If a squishy member of your party needs cover, they can move next to you. Not only will this force enemies to provoke an AoO from your reach weapons in order to reach your ally BUT you will also be able to protect them from harm. So, yes, you can spend a turn every now and then moving to defend an ally but THEY can also spend a turn coming to you for protection. Talk to your allies, see how they fight together, and see if they would be interested in sheltering behind your reach.
2: Redirect Force is a risk/reward maneuver. Yes, damage you take is generally bad news but in Pathfinder you are going to be hit anywhere from 60-40% of the time depending upon the enemy. d8 HP is more than enough to take a couple of hits, because the game is designed around players taking hits from their encounters.
The real advantage of Redirect force is that it GREATLY helps you out against opponents who are otherwise going to be very difficult to Trip. Let me give an example:
The Storm Giant is a CR13 monster who has a 28 AC. Hitting him with a weapon is not overly difficult. However, this Storm Giant has 42 CMD. In order to even attempt a Trip against this man, you would need to drink a potion of Enlarge Person in order to be within one size category of him. Even then, you need a minimum of +22 to your trip attempt. Meanwhile, you need a minimum of +8 to hit this man. That is a 14 point different in break points and its HUGE.
We can combat this, after all we've got our whole build built around tripping (and Feinting denies an opponent's Dex to their CMD in addition to denying them their Dex to their AC) BUT you're still looking at least +4 to the difficulty of the roll you're trying to land. Which is a 20% additional chance of failure.
If we eat a blow from the Storm Giant though, 4d6+21 will hurt our 11d8+2d10+39 HP but it will also 100% ensure that we plant this man on his ass. Not only that, but because of Greater Trip all our allies will get an AoO. Then they'll get another if the Giant tries to stand up. Meanwhile, everyone who gets to attack the giant while it's tripped gets +4 to beat on it with a melee weapon (including the rest of your Two Weapon Fighting turn).
AND Redirect Force is optional too, so you don't need to use it if you don't want to. It just assures that you land your maneuver.
This trend in Tripping vs Hitting is really prevalent in higher CR categories. Its less important earlier, but more important later on when CMDs start getting absurd.
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Ok, here are several things to consider.
Take Forgotten Trick. Things like smoke bombs are fun when you need them, useless when you don't.
Get the Ring of Ki Mastery. You're already aware of this item. Now Forgotten Trick only costs 1 ki point.
Avoid selecting Combat Trick. As was pointed out, you can only have one Combat Trick. Use Forgotten Trick to select Combat Trick and pick up whatever feat you need. You now essentially have a 1 Ki swift action martial flexibility that can also be used for obscure ninja tricks.
Moving on... don't try to do too much. Make sure you're good at what you do try to do. Bodyguard seems like something for a different build, and getting it at 17th is way too late. +2 AC at that point is really nothing. This is a feint, trip, turn invisible, strength based two weapon fighting build. That's a lot going on.
Greater Trip is not a legal choice at 7th level, as you won't have BAB +6. It's also a prime candidate for a feat to pick up with your Forgotten Trick Combat Trick when you want to trip, since it does nothing for you when you aren't tripping someone. But if you plan to trip every turn, go ahead and take it.
Take Improved Feint early. Don't take two-weapon Feint until later in the build. Until you have +6 BAB, you'll only get one attack after a Feint anyway. If you use Improved Feint, you don't take the -2 for TWF. Keep Improved Feint, even when you get TWFeint. Instead of taking Improved TWFeint, take Greater Feint. It works fine with TWFeint, and it also makes the opponent denied dex against everyone, not just you. Improved Feint will mostly be a feat tax at this point, but worth it for the benefit of Greater Feint.
Look into offensive defense.
Take the weapon training Trick/rogue talent for weapon focus. Ninjas have no way to boost their to-hit, and they can use every bit they can get. Especially if TWF.
Look at the Opportunist Advanced Rogue Talent if you're getting Combat reflexes. Trip someone and they provoke from Greater trip for everyone around them. Take your AoO. Take another one from Opportunist when your ally hits them. Feint them first. They're denied dex to everyone, prone, and taking sneak attack damage.
Since you are already taking Combat Expertise, you can also pick up Gang Up, either as a known feat or through Forgotten Trick Combat Trick to flank when two allies are adjacent. That's a good situational feat to use with FT, because you won't always need it.
Phalanx Formation is another. Or Lunge. Or Shadow Strike (important on a ninja when it comes up). Too many options to take individually, but having quick access to them at the right time is amazing.
Ninja saves are bad. Iron Will is something to consider and Improved Iron Will for the reroll. UMonk doesn't help you with will saves. Twist Away for help against Fort Saves. You'll have evasion from monk anyway. It requires Evasion, which is worth taking as an advanced Trick st some point anyway. At 17th level a failed save is more likely to kill the ninja than some hit point damage is to kill one of your party members, so if you don't have these options by then, I definitely recommend them over bodyguard and in harm's way.
Anyway, lots of options.